'State schools are creating amoral children'

Thanks for the list Word.

From what little I know, Mandarin is an almost impossible language. The one person I know who has no option but to try it, is unable to write his own address!

I have two close relatives with Mandarin. Not that it has served any practical purpose....

Bonsoir - I know some very posh people. I also know plenty of normal people, being one myself. I suspect our definitions of normal may not be identical though. Nor our definitions of posh.

The fact that I am implacably wedded to the term, and the idea, is probably the biggest marker of my origins to be honest. Especially since I've always spoken reasonably well due to singing training. I do swear like a navvy though. But then - so do many posh people!

Bonsoir - I imagine we are the same generation. My youngest DC is starting at secondary school in September, my oldest is just finishing Y11. I know quite a few people with Latin. And a small number with Greek.

The really golden language would be business Chinese (to my shame I don't know whether that is Cantonese or mandarin based). But it's very very difficult to get it right. The level of scorn at those who try and mess up is very high and generally not worth the risk.

The people I know aren't "posh" - just normally educated...

Oh, absolutely - the posh European people I know (not truly posh, in a European sense as there are so many minor/ex royals knocking around - my circle of acquaintance peaks at senior diplomat sort of level) all speak 3 or 4 languages perfectly, and all send their kids off to school for at least a year, maybe longer, to here, the US and probably another fashionable place too, as well as having university terms or longer in different countries). What is somewhat hilarious though is that they generally assume I am posher than some of my truly posh colleagues because of my cultural capital. They don't get that I'm...you know. Not One of Us. They get that I play instruments to a high level, know about the music environment in their countries, know about history and theatre, literature, art etc. I was in Prague a while ago for work, in the company of many colleagues from different countries and I idly wondered out loud if one of the windows in the buildings we were passing was the famous one. My British, minor public school educated, very snotty, colleague looked blank and asked me to explain. The others were all shocked.

There are many things that any properly educated person should know. Few of which involve brains intelligence or other skills, to be honest. As our schools transition from cathedrals of learning to training boot camps for quite possibly low level mundane drone work, these things are being gradually (maybe not so gradually actually) lost. To all but the monied. IME state schools are very strong on morals and that sort of thing. But they are in danger of becoming weaker in the things that make life worth living (because that's Gove's vision). I think some posh schools are going the same way too, but it's cold comfort.

I think DC need to start doing all the things on your list before adulthood - DC in Paris certainly do. It's a badge of honour to do your first US summer camp before you leave primary school and that is just the first in a series of 7 or 8 overseas language/cultural residentials. DSS2 (16 - Y12) is going on his 9th (I think) overseas residential this summer.

Latin and Greek are not incompatible with MFLs. Though I know very few people in my generation with much Latin or Greek and very many indeed with 4, 5 or more MFLs.

I am gearing myself up to applying for DD's secondary education and one of my many criteria is how to ensure she does both German and Italian (in addition to French, English and Spanish she has already started).

Maybe in the UK herc but certainly that aint the case in lots of Europe...which I guess kinda proves his point.

Sorry Bonsoir I menat university students as I had assumed that was who this guy was refering to.

School aged DC aren't working for money all summer. The organisations I have dealt with all complain that British teens aren't up for the adventure. Finding an exchange partner in the UK is barely worth attempting.

Word, a lot of the very posh people I know view being fluent in MFLs with suspicion Although never having travelled (the right sort of travel, shopping and museums etc in NYC not Disneyland, shopping and museums or skiing possibly in France, not eurocamp etc) is de rigueur. Familiarity with the classics is viewed more fondly than familiarity with German or Spanish. Being multi lingual is seen as perhaps trying a little too hard. Or worse.

Bonosir I'm sure there are ways and means to sort extended trips.

But most students need to work during the Summer if they can, or at least keep spending to a minimum, and here was this guy saying 'get thee to Italy for three months and immerse thyself in the ways of the ancients '

Herc he wasn't suggesting MFL's as something you'd be using on a day to day basis in your job, more that not knowing another language kind of marked you out as a bit insular IYSWIM. A bit uneducated particular to our European brothers and sisters.

Most of what he was talking about were things that were soft skills really. Ways in which you could show yourself as a member of the global community, with a knowledge of it and interest in it.

And whilst I don't imagine that not having access to any of these things would be definitive , I can see how together they produce a rather tempting package.

Thank you, rabbitstew - the hope that someone would finally enlighten me as to the proper way to eat asparagus has kept me going through several pages of this thread! I was about to give up and resort to google...

Extended stays in foreign countries are not always prohibitively expensive. There are exchange programmes that are quite reasonable. My DSS1 went to Melbourne for 7 weeks when he was 15 (during his summer holidays), lived with a family and attended school. It was rather a lot cheaper than taking him on summer holiday!

He's wrong about MFLs anyway. So that's something. Some state schools do the IB - there is one MNetter who lives near me whose DD had to leave posh school to go to the local 6th form college to do it, because the posh schools don't.

Studying abroad is of course also the province of the monied - the fees are lower but you don't qualify for the loans etc so you either have to have the money upfront to fund your child, or you have to borrow at commercial, definitely pay back straight away, rates. Which is the main reason why DD1 can't even consider or aspire to going to the conservatoriums in Amsterdam or Florence which are apparently the very best places to study her instrument. :( It's doubly unfair of course because it means those who have, have the opportunity to get Higher Ed cheaper than those who have not.

Oh gawd pippi there was allsorts. He did go on a bit, bless him.

But the things that stuck out to me as bloody expensive included.

• learning MFLs to a higher level than GCSE, including out of school if a student does not wihs to sit an MFL A level.

• doing the IB (which I think hardly any state schools do, so essentially he was saying 'go private')

• do the pre-u, which again means 'go private'.

• attend extended residentials in foreign countries (for culture as well as language).

• Consider university abroad, especially for post undergraduate studies.

• whatever your degree, mark yourself out as a person of the arts (which as Herc says, is fast becoming the province of the rich).

• look for international internships and programs (can you imagine how much that would cost )...

Word, what were the things suggested as a way for young people to find success?

The right way to eat asparagus is irrelevant in our global world since nationalities are n't going to adhere to those rules . The class system is more about spending power than anything else.

I did know the correct way to eat asparagus because it was in a book I read when young (as an example of a faux pas an unclassy person made). Similarly the issue of pre and post lactarians in the area of tea drinking (I'm a vegan and have never drunk tea yet still I know).

Word is absolutely right about the elites pulling up the drawbridge. We are now a nation of debt laden serfs. Even if we have no current debt the likelihood of future debt related to poxy pensions and funding of elderly care means that without significant capital a person, even one with a current high salary, is essentially fucked.

rabbit I agree with you.

The middle ground has been quiety swept away. The MC are in no better position to join the elite than the working class. Not really.

At the talk I attended last night, I was struck that the things being suggested as a way for young people to find success may be more meritocrous than the old system of table manners and old school tie, as they are things that require great effort on the young person's part...but they were all blindingly expensive!

So whilst they weren't handed on a plate, they still excluded those without hard cash in some instances.

(I'm posh and I didn't know it).

From the internet:

"Table manners for eating asparagus.

When asparagus stalks are firm and aren't sauced, it's fine to pick them up with your fingers, one stalk at a time. (Asparagus is traditionally a finger food, and the English and many other nationalities still see it as such.)

Think twice, however, about using your fingers for unsauced, firm spears if your fellow diners use a knife and fork or if you're a guest at a formal meal. When in doubt, use utensils."