'State schools are creating amoral children'

And people who appear nice can turn out to have the most awful hidden secrets. I also think there is a difference between an oligarch being charming and interesting company, considerate to the individual in front of him, and the same oligarch thinking the same rules do not apply when he is considering the effects of his business strategies. Oligarchs fighting in the English courts do NOT make a pretty sight.

happygardening - I know there are companies that work ethically and do not go out of their way to exploit. I don't really think the whole of society is amoral, although I have to say I have been left a bit cynical after realising that bad practice is more widespread than I believed when I was in my 20s (more in terms of blind eyes being turned to malpractice than everyone outright ripping off the system). It is fun to do a bit of stirring from time to time, though, as per the Chairman of the Independent Schools Association. Two can play at that game.

happygardening. Would you agree though that the world at the top, on the whole is getting murkier iyswim ?

And even, ahem, that that some companies are too wealthy?

"Seems to me, I spent my childhood being brought up to behave with the utmost propriety, work hard, always be considerate of others, then went into the world of work and was expected to forget most of that if I wanted to progress."

Do you think that they are wrong, Bonsoir?

I'm also not sure what this has to do with independent education and the learning of a moral compass!

I work with people from all back grounds from oligarchs to those who don't know when they will see their next meal. Most people are very moral, their morals may not always be exactly the same as mine but most will agree on basic fundamentals of behaviour. Of course there are some unsavoury types from all backgrounds.
I don't accept all the business world revolves around what you can get away with and I don't think the word profit is dirty word, or that you've necessarily achieved it at the expenses of the down trodden worker, my DH's company make a profit from the super rich.
There are ethical companies who are making a profit. Bet not exploiting every worker to do it.

Bonsoir - so you think premium rate phone lines for customer complaints are an acceptable way of making a bit of extra profit, do you? Or energy companies charging fixed amounts by direct debit which are always more than you actually owe, and then sitting on your money rather than giving it straight back and making a profit out of it? Things like these aren't illegal, just eventually after many years of taking place when everyone concerned must know they are a farcical way of making a profit out of people, strongly discouraged. There are numerous examples of what I would consider immoral ways of making profit that continue to take place until enough fuss is made about them. I would be EMBARRASSED to be working for companies carrying out such tactics.

I think that taking responsibility for one's own children's education is the moral course of action.

I would be a lot better off if I didn't bother!

Bonsoir - if it's not moral and it's not immoral, then it's amoral, surely?

"Seems to me, I spent my childhood being brought up to behave with the utmost propriety, work hard, always be considerate of others, then went into the world of work and was expected to forget most of that if I wanted to progress."

Maybe you should question the values you were expected to uphold in childhood? Maybe - just maybe - they were wrong.

I sometimes wonder whether my parents and schools would have done me a favour if they HADN'T brought me up to believe there is a moral way of doing things, when the business world seems to revolve around seeing what you can get away with.

rabbit I didn't say it does least I wasn't trying to say it does but I understand why parents think by paying it might do.
rabbit I also don't quite understand why by buying an education for your child you're accepting society is amoral. I buy education but I don't accept society is amoral.

Oh come on, rabbitstew. It is only extremely recently that some societies have been able to afford universal state-funded education for all their young. Parents are the the people responsible for their children's education, not the state. There is nothing whatsoever amoral or immoral about buying education for one's children.

By buying your child an education, you are accepting that society is amoral at best.

Happy - a private education may buy you many great things, but I really don't believe you can buy yourself a moral compass.

Im a bit of a leftie and have come from a long line of "party member" comrade, I agree that capitalism isnt the solution but struggle to see that communism, Marxism, or socialism is the guaranteed solution either. Hence being a "bit" of a leftie.
I agree we as voters often feel we don't have the power to change things and and politicians aren't listening. I'm about to vote this morning but frankly doesn't matter who I vote for we're one of the Tories safest seats with a stonking majority. But even if my vote would make a difference who would I vote for to get my views heard? Not UKIP Id rather boil my head, the Tories I don't like their policies, labour I do agree with a lot Milliband says but will it happen in reality, the Liberal democrats they sold their soles to the devil 4 years ago, The Greens maybe but what's the point they loose their deposit round here.
If lots of parents feel like I do is it then surprising they pay school fees, disillusioned with the state offering which they can't influence in my significant way they hope that by paying things like teaching of a "moral compass" is something they get in return

Quite., It has all gone too far. [I could get political at this point but wont bother]

Capitalism is amoral. Expecting forever increasing profits, as shareholders apparently do, is just wanting to ensure you get more out of others than they get out of you.

Going back to the OP, I really firmly believe that moral compass is learned at home, and if you have experience of both sectors you will know that there are "amoral" people in both sectors - that's just life. Money or class is not a guarantee of superior or inferior morality.

That doesn't mean there are not problems in both sectors. Smaller, less successful independent schools are struggling for pupils. State schools are struggling with cuts, a growing population and lack of new schools and resources. There is also an ethos problem in state schools, and in my opinion is due to the fact that the direction isn't one that is serving the general public, but more government targets.

This is indeed a political issue, but not one that is being addressed. The current department of Education seems to be going in the opposite direction - e.g. less funding and more targets. Everyone is under pressure and some of the more popular independent schools are thriving because of it. My eldest daughter is at one of those and there has been a huge surge in demand - and that's nowhere near London.

I think that says something about how unhappy many parents feel with the situation and do not have the power to change things as politicians are not listening to what parents want and need for their children.

If you ask me, the whole of society sets an amoral example to our children (or an immoral one...). Seems to me, I spent my childhood being brought up to behave with the utmost propriety, work hard, always be considerate of others, then went into the world of work and was expected to forget most of that if I wanted to progress. Where have we seen examples of moral behaviour in the world of finance or politics, recently???... In fact, what examples of moral behaviour have we seen anywhere? I certainly haven't seen evidence of the high moral standards of public schools anywhere - in fact, given the current media obsession with child abuse, quite the opposite. Muck sells. Morality doesn't.

Unrealhousewife- can I ask what personal experience of state schools you have?

Although I'm not a teacher so don't really know

You sure said a mouthful there!

Oh yeah... J'aime, State School Girl, that's called, right?

But going back to the source article...

I actually agree with the man. The State school system is spurred on by competition for results and saving money. This has permeated the system and we have transient teachers who need to perform, lots of young teachers because they are cheaper, a division between non teaching and teaching staff so support is downgraded and given less status. The moral attitude among peers is very much sink or swim. Go with the crowd or you get dropped. Think J'Aimee. Although I'm not a teacher so don't really know...

On the education side, they are taught to tests, not to enquire. There is no rote learning meaning they are constantly looking things up and not able to reach the point where they are armed with real knowledge with which to make their point. In primary school it is fine but in secondary the moral compass is very much askew.

Herc - so 'posh' people are abnormal, are they? Do you think 'oiks' are abnormal? I find your comment quite offensive tbh.