'State schools are creating amoral children'

Not all independent schools expel on the spot those who can't or won't behave some work really hard to try and improve this behaviour they feel a genuine moral obligation to help these children and often only expel them after every avenue has been explored and exhausted. Teenagers from all back grounds misbehave, it's normal, and many independent schools do realise this.

No early teenage pregnancy isn't the school's fault but it would have been nice if the other children had received some guidance about underage sex, the fact it is illegal, contraception, empowerment to support consensual sex, empowerment to say no, advice about stable loving relationships, advice about where help was available etc..

The stark contrast between what my state school taught us 40 years ago and right wrong and what was taught to my dd was shocking. We didn't have things like PSHE and Citizenship but right and wrong and how we should conduct ourselves was threaded through the school community which was led by very sensible women who were passionate about their girls and about their vocation.

The independent sector does exclude those can't or won't behave. And quite rightly. That should also be the case in the state sector. What the state sector needs are more specialist units to deal with those who cannot be dealt with in the mainstream without seriously affecting the achievement and enjoyment and love of knowledge of those around them.

"pastoral care" is very much the buzz word amongst many independent schools at the moment especially the boarding ones. With so many achieving good results and having similar facilities etc many parents closely scrutinise and question standards of pastoral care when choosing a school. Many independent schools are trying to set themselves apart from other by offering services not available in the state sector.

Play can I suggest you read the article linked above even the Guardian headline incorrect. No one on here even indepdnent eds. staunchest supporters have said that it guarantees a sound ethic.

My experience of several Early Years settings and state primary is that there's a huge emphasis on kindness, caring, social values etc. Much more so than 'in my day'.

I went to a private secondary and don't remember anything in the way of 'values' being taught - teachers were pretty distant figures who didn't really interact with the pupils beyond teaching their subjects and making sure they weren't escaping from the premises when not in lessons. Very little in terms of pastoral care - we were left very much to our own devices when it came to emotional support.

Past the ethnic diversity in my DS's boarding school is significantly more diverse than at my DS1's middle class virtually all white comp, the class diversity if not the same but is probably no less narrow, at DS2's school all wealthy upper middle-class/upper class, oligarchs billionaires etc with 15% receiving significant financial assistance, DS1's school parents are comfortably off white MC with only .3% FSM. Many do enter a Winchester from EAL backgrounds and some do require help with this, 10% are identified as requiring learning support that's higher than DS1's school, neither are exposed to the extremely poverty at school and there are only 1-2 disabled. It is easy to make generalisations about schools in both sector but often generalisations are just that. DS1's school like most of our DC's school reflects the "real life diversity" in the places we have chosen to make our homes.

play you know he didn't say anything remotely like that, don't you?

Of course the majority if criminals are state educated.

And of course, it's linked to poverty.

Which is why when I see a rich criminal/tax evader I do look at them in terms of morality in a way that I wouldn't for a more standard-issue criminal.

And it still stands that private education doesn't seem to guarantee sound ethics. Neither sector does as mr head of St On Its Uppers Prep well knows if he weren't so desperate to feed the media stereotype of state schools being full of feral illiterates.

Pregnancy amongst teenage girls be they at independent or state school is a confidential assuming it's not a CP issue, many in both sectors will get pregnant and opt for a termination this is of no business of the schools.
Yes you could say the concept of private schools is amoral but so many other things are also only available to the wealthy; decent housing, decent care for the elderly, even decent high quality food. But this goes not mean that the children who attend them are amoral, many are exceedingly aware of how lucky they are and don't take it your granted.

BurgenSnurgen:

Well it's headline grabbing isn't it.

It would be lovely if every child grew up truthful, hard-working, reliable and trustworthy - but I suspect that never was the case.

And if I'm honest, for all its flaws, St. Mediocre (my affectionate name for DD1's primary school) has help train DD1 to navigate a diversity of characters from privileged to highly deprived social backgrounds, from highly educated to poorly educated backgrounds, from British to foreign backgrounds, for English speaking to EAL backgrounds, able to disabled/ SN etc... And I suspect, that kind of real-life diversity is less likely to be the case in the independent sector.

In short - swings and roundabouts folks.

"A thirteen year old got pregnant all we heard were excuses"

It's not the school's fault, and it's very possibly not the 13yo's fault either.

Learning was continually diluted due to disruption.

It won't be an outstanding school for long then.

How do private schools deal with discipline issues better than state schools? Or do they simply not have badly behaved children as they would expel them? Where does the expelled child then go to school???

Also, teenage pregnancy does occur at private school but the girls are expelled as they are in breech of contract.

I'm not sure how a 13 year old being pregnant is the schools fault

"A thirteen year old got pregnant all we heard were excuses"
Like what? This is not a school issue if it only it was them it could be easily addressed and prevented. This is a tragedy usually created by a variety of problems.

I doubt any one has ever said have lots of money makes you a particularly moral person. But just because you went to an independent school and your parents could afford it doesn't mean that you're amoral either.
Serious tax evasion by its nature is more likely to be committed by the very wealthy the comfortably off are very often on PAYE and those living in extreme poverty are unlikely to even pay tax.

I completely agree with him and it's why we removed our daughter from an outstanding CofE comprehensive.

There were children there who were fighting, thieving, swearing at staff, and all we heard were excuses because of their backgrounds. Learning was continually diluted due to disruption. All we heard were excuses. A thirteen year old got pregnant, all we heard were excuses.

I had no confidence that the people leading the school had any cognizance of right and wrong and did not feel the school was operating under an acceptable moral compass.

Also we live in a very unequal society where money can buy you a better education. How is that moral, Mr Warden?

I think his words have been slightly taken out of context or misunderstood either deliberately or accidentally. I think he's saying that independent schools are not always so obsessed with results/league table thus can offer in a limited school day a broader education and thus produce more rounded individuals rather than more moral ones.

One of the major problems in society is that the so-called elite do not provide an example of how to behave in a moral, principled way, as they ride roughshod over others and think the more money and power they have that morals do not apply to them. The vast majority of these people came from a highly privileged and well-connected background and went to independent schools.

Most crime is squalid, nasty and linked to disadvantage and poverty. So is unlikely to be committed by people who went to private school.

Although the educational background of the vast majority of tax evaders might be worth looking at. As would the moral compass of successive Front Benchers and Cabinet members.

I think Richard Warden's comments are one of the most revolting things I have read this year.

In what ways do independent schools provide a moral compass where state schools do not?

"But crime is linked to poverty, not morality IMVHO"
Not just in your very honest opinion but in all published research as well, poverty is the trap that creates so many of the problems in our society sadly our government is he'll bent on increasingly penalising those at the bottom of pile.

I agree Mart society in general surely plays a part in providing children with a moral compass it's not just the job of a parent/school. I would like it if moral stances like the do unto others etc and similar would be do etched into parts of our society that children witness in all aspecps of their lived not just in small isolated sections.