'State schools are creating amoral children'

Vintage mumsnet summerends

The reality is that school does not make a blind bit of difference to prejudice.

You don't think children, for example, in Northern Ireland who attend integrated schools are more likely to be tolerant of each other, Word?

From what I can gather this thread has gone from 'state schools are amoral places' (obvious rubbish) to 'private schools are amoral places' as children there are never going to mix with non MC members of society (obvious rubbish) with 'money is the root of all evil' and homosexuality thrown in. All in the space of a few hours .

But here's the thing. 95 % of children in the UK are state educated and yet, the working classes are demonised

Oh come on Wordfactory you can do better than that. It's about who controls the discourse...

So feel free to tell me how state schools help the acceptance of the working classes

Well, they let them in the door, for one thing! Are the working class helped by private schools, much?

No, monte but I believe that schools which only let rich or very clever children in do mean that the children there will only be going to school with other wealthy or very clever children. QED, surely?

No I did not say that, word. You made an analogy about groups you hadn't met, and I suggested the analogy didn't hold true, and the metaphor doesn't stretch.

I'm sure there are wealthy Jewish, Muslim and gay children in private schools. I have no quarrel with that fact. I do not think private school parents seek to keep their childre away from wealthy Jewish, Muslim and gay children. I hope that's clear.

Yes I see. You believe a motivating force in choosing a private school is to avoid one's children mixing with certain groups.

Would you make such ill-informed prejudicial decisions about other societal groups?

I can only think you read the Daily Mail, hedwiggity, rather than actually know any state schools.

It wasn't remotely obvious nit.

I mentioned various groups I had never met until univeristy and you said private school parents pay to avoid them.

Hey Ho.

But here's the thing. 95 % of children in the UK are state educated and yet, the working classes are demonised. So feel free to tell me how state schools help the acceptance of the working classes.

Ditto gay people, jews and muslims.

The reality is that school does not make a blind bit of difference to prejudice. That is the reslut of parenting and community views.

martorana why are private schools more accommodating of homosexulaity? I suspect it's because so many of them are single sex. And because gay teachers are prevalent.

I think state school are a load of crap IMHO.They don't teach half the stuff they should/used to teach, they nanny and PC the crap out of everything and turn a blind eye when bullying happens because they believe in their 0 tolerance so much they can't possibly admit it doesn't work. Also they feed kids absolute rubbish for school meals and then moan and try say that the pack lunch you prepared is unhealthy ?? bonkers.. the next government elected really needs to sort schools out up and down the country IMO.

happy said this* Do we need to have the daily practice of interacting with those who are of: different intelligence levels, have special needs and of an different economic background to develop a moral compass?

word's answer was this ^you ask if someone needs to interact daily with people different from yourself to develop acceptance - the answer is of course you don't!
I had barely met anoyone that wasn't WC before I went to unveristy. I had certainly never met a muslim or a jew or anyone openly gay^

Hence my response. Private school parents, at best as a natural consequence of their choice, ensure a situation where their children don't mix with the children Happy has described. word suggested that was no different from the fact that she didn't grow up knowing muslims, gay people or Jewish people. I pointed out that the reason she didn't was not because her parents had ensured that happened. Whereas it is with children who are not as bright or rich, for children at private schools. Do you see?

No, not the groups mentioned, and I think if you read back to the post where wordfactory commented that she didn't meet people from any of those groups until university, it's really obvious what I was responding to and what I meant.

She made an analogy and I made one back.

One of my main memories of private school was how absolutely ruthless they were in publicity terms. One girl was expelled just before her GCSEs because the Sun did a story on her breaking out one night to spend it with her boyfriend - she'd been punished and the situation dealt with, but once the media reported it (this was the 80s, "toff schoolgirls" were for some bizarre reason news) they hastily binned her so they could issue a statement claiming as much. My cousins have similar stories, despite attending different schools. I don't think prioritising the school's reputation at the expense of individual students' welfare is very moral, and nor is coaching them on PR if ever within sniffing distance of media, but both were completely common in my experience. He needs to wind his neck in.

Kids are kids. They range across the spectrum whereever they are. Anyone claiming otherwise is a cretin. Or seeking to justify huge fees... and again, bolstering reputation.

wordfactory: I had barely met anoyone that wasn't WC before I went to unveristy. I had certainly never met a muslim or a jew or anyone openly gay

Sure: me neither. But not, in either case I don't think, because our parents paid good money to make sure we didn't, right? Or, more charitably, paid good money to ensure a situation which, coincidentally, resulted in us not doing so?

Which bit have I misunderstood? I asked in my post if that's what she meant because I thought it a prejudiced, insulting and frankly silly statement.

I understand the above to imply that private school parents wish, now and in your youth, to avoid mixing with the groups mentioned.

What utter tosh. Do try and expand your social horizons.

Happygarden

What an odd child!

"What, not being exposed to gay, Jewish or Muslim people?

If that's what you meant, what an extraordinarily insulting and ignorant assertion."
It is perfectly obvious that TOSN was referring to the first part of Word's sentence. The one that everyone is studiously ignoring in their rush to list the "diversity" of their private schools. Socio-economic groups A- and at a pinch B - in all colours and sexualities!

happygardening I struggle to accept that educating your child privately has that much impact on society

Look how many politicians come from a private education background and look at the affect they have on society. I jest of course. However, if I was paying for private education for my children, I would want them to have an affect on society, a positive one.

happygardening - it's money or at least the having large sums of it and the determination to acquire more at any costs that I believe has the biggest impact on society.

Fully agree, as per the saying - money is the route of all evil.

What I find most interesting with the arguments regarding state and private education, is that in some areas (a point I tried to make earlier in this thread) is that the two have a degree of cross over in terms of the profile of people who use them.

steamingnit what an extraordinary assertion - that is really not why people send their children to private schools and besides your average private school is far likelier to have more Jewish children in than your average state school. Some people seem to live in imaginary worlds.

At a recent lunch thingy we listened to a state educated child making incredibly sweeping and judgemental statements about the sort of people that went to what I only know as old Polys definitely not RG universities. He was so condescending I was frankly stunned, criticising their clothes, speech and level of intelligence. If my DS has started spouting this rubbish, Im sure plenty would have been falling over themselves to say he was a typical product of the independent school system. Instead my DS was as offended and horrified as I was, both of us felt that as it's was the hostesses much adored son it would be bad manners to comment so we quickly ate our meal and left!

Well you see again my experiences differ from assumptions on this thread.

DS's school: London hothouse, very selective academically. DC who were Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, Catholic, CoE and probably a plethora of others. Nationalities were: German, French, American, Australian, Chinese, Korean, Iranian, Russian, Indian, Italian, South African, Swedish, etc., there were also a few boys who lived in social housing on scholarships.

DD's school: not for the grammar school quotient and a very mixed ability but more homogenous and has been accused of being full of rich girls who are a bit dim and from the gin and jag belt. However, they all mix together and tumble along.

DD's comp: was a school of two cities and operated a bit like apartheid. The mc girls lived in one world and the others in another. The twain simply didn't meet and it was a very strange environment indeed. Exclusively unhealthy and different groups were ridiculed and excluded in a myriad of ways.

There seem to be a higher % of openly gay boys at DS2's school than were at DS1's school although virtually an equal number of boys. Maybe Im wrong but I doubt it's any less than found in the state sector. You are certainly not paying too avoid gays Jews or Muslims and why you'd want to is beyond me.

The definition of moral is subjective.
For some, it is a near version of what is in the bible.
For some it is the morals of the country that they were born in.
Others have their own definition.

paid good money to ensure a situation which, coincidentally, resulted in us not doing so?

What, not being exposed to gay, Jewish or Muslim people?

If that's what you meant, what an extraordinarily insulting and ignorant assertion.

My children have an extremely broad cross-section of friends through both school and local sports clubs.

And I would be horrified to hear them make such sweeping judgements about other people.

Although I am curious to know why there should be a higher % of openly gay people at private schools.........