'State schools are creating amoral children'

Is there anyone here that would sacrifice a child's place at private school, or/and Oxbridge "for the sake of society"?

I'm all for anyone with the right ability applying to university (best three years of my life) regardless of their background, I think it's a great idea, but my actions and my choices aren't stopping them.

You, however are embracing the "it's no use giving the poor baths. They will only keep coal in them" attitude.

"You are embracing the 'I know what's best for you' which is rather patronising of people's life choices and family backgrounds"

No I'm not. And nothing I have said suggests that I am. You are projecting your attitudes on to others.

My post was of course relating to Mart's rather dogmatic previous ones.

Yes. He admired those who worked for the common good.

My post was of course relating to Mart's rather dogmatic previous ones.

You are embracing the 'I know what's best for you' which is rather patronising of people's life choices and family backgrounds

Ok Mart I think most people accept that some have more advantages than others, and it's not all about private ed either as you acknowledged, but can you tell me how sending my DS to our high achieving academy stuffed with other white comfortably off MC families (we have one of the highest grad populations in the UK here by the way) or too the super selective in the next county helps these disadvantaged children in any way? It doesn't.
I dont know what will help them God I wish I did but I do believe lifting them out of poverty is the first thing we should.

I suspect de Toquville would have agreed that the ho polloi should be offered fair access to the aristocrat's preserve as well as the other way round.

'Aristocratic nations are naturally too apt to narrow the scope of human perfectability; democratic nations to expand it beyond compass'

De Tocquville

"Mart I am slightly uncomfortable with a colonial style attitude that imposes our views of what is best for an individual."

But perfectly happy with a colonial style attitude that "keeps them high or lowly and orders their estate"

Mart I am slightly uncomfortable with a colonial style attitude that imposes our views of what is best for an individual.

Well to play devil's advocate, her approach might have some sense in it. What are you mentoring her towards? She might well see more rational sense in studying landscape gardening/ salon management/ AAT exams . And she might be right because whatever work a philosopher from Edinburgh or a Durham classicist goes into, it is likely to entail further costly training and getting a position probably needs some of the soft skills and cultural capital imparted by the families - something which will be far harder won by your young mentee - even if she is interested in gaining it in the first place.

"But the schools must play their part. These candidates have to be ready. Raw talent aint enough."

Absolutely

And privileged kids (like mine) will be ready regardless of their school. Because I know how the system works. Because elite universities are on their radar. Because they can ask family members and friends about their university experience. Because they have been brought up to think that going to university is normal, ordinary and what people do. When my dd recently filled in her UCAS form, we knew people with experience of every university on her list.

How is that not the most colossal advantage over someone whose family have all left school at 16 at the latest? I am currently mentoring a girl from a family where nobody has stayed at school past 14. Ever. She has a loving and involved mother. But when 6th form was suggested, she said "why would you waste your time with crap like that?"

And I am patronizing for suggesting that the playing field is not exactly level!

I think the independent sector is under as much pressure if not more to get results, when parents become the customer they are more demanding.

Anyway, with reference to the op, Richard Walden has written to today's Times, explaining he thinks state schools are doing a fine job but that colleagues in that sector tell him pressure to get results mean they cannot spend the time on non academic /moral education that they would like to. He claims he independent sector is able to attend to these aspects more easily because of lack of government interference and pressure.

Which is what we might have expected he meant anyway.

Slip on an attitudal (is that a word?) level I agree. And Oxbridge expend a lot of time and energy trying to encourage students from those communities to at least consider us, or places like us.

But the schools must play their part. These candidates have to be ready. Raw talent aint enough.

There is a 'levelling' attitude in less advantaged communities that often mitigates against efforts schools might try make to prepare students.

I agree herc and I would say other placed too. And they are being given the quiet freedom to choose who they like.

Imperial has always (well, for 30+ years at least) provided very serious competition for Oxford. Obviously in its own niche areas.

slip is right on two counts; an applicant does need to be ready for Oxbridge. What I have seen very clearly as part of the access scheme is that as much, if not more effort needs to be made by schools. The responsibility to bridge the advatange gap cannot be all down to the universoties. Second, Oxbridge is packed with those aiming for the city. There's a joke that historians first passion is history, until they do their law conversion course.

I think the comment in the original article is seems to assume there is a single "gold standard" of moral behaviour.

This is not the case - it changes radically from generation to generation. If the majority of children are being brought up as so called "amoral" then this will simply become the new normal.

The private school children will be left outraged and Mary Whitehouse-like out of step with the consensus. Not sure that justifies 100k over 13 years.

Thanks we shall wait and see. Being a bit of a leftie I hope he sticks to the principle of not feathering your nest at others expense.

Good luck to your ds, happy. I hope he's successful and makes a positive difference for the benefit of us all.