How do we choose between poor local secondaries and superb ones an hour away for DS (currently year 5)?

"It depends very much on what his actual journey would be like?"

And, I can't stress this enough, how late is possible to make it, and what about weekends? And is the 15/20 minute walk one you would be happy with your child doing at 7.00 at night? And where might their friends be living?

If you are looking at a school with what look on the surface like less than stellar GCSEs you need to dig a bit deeper. How do lower, middle and high attainers do? Do high attainers make at least expected progress in all subjects? How do they set/stream and when do they start doing it? What sort of extra curricular activities does the school have and how well attended are they? What GCSEs do they offer- and what ones do they actually do? (Some schools offer a wide range but can't actually do them if they don't get a big enough take up).

My dd2 has a journey of about an hour, door to door, and dd3 is joining her there in September. It's a 15/20 walk, or short bus journey, then a longer bus journey (but only a few miles), then a 5/10 min walk at the other end. It's fine. The buses are very reliable and regular.

It depends very much on what his actual journey would be like?

Following.... Our dc are younger but we have similar things to consider. An hour to a selective grammar (although we could probably get some group transport to cut the travel time) versus local comp 10mins walk. The comp does seem to get good results for its intake but at about 50% 5a-c's a lot of the intake have low aspiration (we live in a mixed outer london borough which is one of the most deprived in england so there are local crime/gang problems) amongst those from more educated (but not affluent) families. We know local families who have done both and been happy. It is more difficult to find people who will give a realistic view with pros and cons. Eg our neighbours (who have gone local for philosophical reasons) will only say "x is a very good school". But because their reasoning is different to mine i struggle to work out if i would also find it good! (i went to a comp 45 mins from home and it wasnt great. I had a rough time for 4 years until i got into classes with kids keen to learn and the neighbours went to private schools so maybe have an idealised idea of what a mixed intake is like......). Then there is the commute - a single ride with short transfers (45-60mins) could be ok but multiple changes not so. Also the areas being walked/travelled through. I will try the commute myself to see if i like it and if not that will be a big influence on our choices. Temperament of the child is important too. A social child might get on ok anywhere but for those who struggle they will tend to struggle more with a more mixed group imo - if you have natural ablity being thrown in at the deep end is probably ok but if you don't a peer group with more in common (whether that is location/ability/background whatever is relevant) might be better. All tricky stuff. Good luck and let me know how you get on.....

Hmmm tricky.

Have you actually travelled the journey at the time you would have to take him in? Using the bus/ train or what ever he'd use?see what it's like, the real timings and if there are other kids from the same school on the route.

If it really is 1hr max from leaving home to getting through the door then maybe that's ok for him. We are in a big city. My kids travel by public transport ( bus if lazy and early bus and train if up for a bit of a walk, it's faster). Dd leaves at 7.30 mostly. DS at 8 am , both are there for registration at 8.50 (2 schools, same site lol).

Kids often go to schools other than the one nearest. Even if not selective. I start work at 8am and at 7.45 I pass a clutch of kids on the way to the catholic school, so they also have a journey of a hour.

However.... Unless you work near DS school if you've driven an hour there you have an hour back...

If you don't / can't move, I would go local, be on the lookout for the school improving in relation to high ability students (most schools seem to rise to the challenge to chase a higher ofsted rating next time), be prepared to keep at the school, and be prepared to encourage your DS to read around the subjects, take him to extra curricular events (it doesn't have to be tutoring - look out for events at the Science Museum, Historical Re-enactments at NT places, summer drama projects, anything that supports and extends his school learning).

He will be a differnt child in terms of his independence and maturity by secondary and getting to and from school will be with his friends - you really don't want to be arranging a grandparents pick up from an after-school club!

op - I could have written a similar post as we have a child in yr 5 and local schools have much lower results/expectations/opportunities than one that is a 45 main journey away. We went to the open evenings last sept/oct to get a view for ourselves rather than rely on local gossip. DC really liked the one further away and so did I but I do worry about the journey and wanted to support our local school so still undecided. If it wasn't for the journey it would be a no brainer. We don't want to move as younger sibling is at school round the corner and we love where we live.

Might think that applies very strongly to competitive DCs like DD2 in a cohort where an A* is really rare an A is going to get you plenty of praise. At the local grammar an A is the least that's expected.

My suspicion is this puts a ridiculous amount of pressure on students and that they don't develop sustainable study skills. Either they do too much work and make mistakes through tiredness and panic or they say bugger it I'll never be that good and give up.

This seems to be especially true at A level, when pacing yourself becomes really important.

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From a purely academic point of view, there's a whole load of evidence that academic high fliers do worse in schools with other academic high fliers (ie better off in "worse" school)

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DD's school was "satisfactory" which nowadays is "requires improvement". We sent her there because it was the nearest and we couldn't afford the fees for private. Since she has been there the school is now "good" and on its way to outstanding. The GCSE results have shot up to 80% pass rate for 5 GCSEs including English and maths.

The head teacher is ambitious for the school and has really pushed it forward. The only thing I can suggest is that you go to the open evenings and actually see what the schools have to offer and what future plans they have for improvement.

I have no regrets sending DD to the nearest school.

Also remember the research that state school DCs get better degrees.

My guess is they don't work harder and I bet they don't work longer hours than their private school contemporaries. My guess is they are far better at combining study and having a life.

But would have been more challenged and more stretched, made them (and you) happier.

DD2 decided not to do the 11+ and sometimes I wish I'd made her (she is a bit lazy), but in truth is 7ys of 7am-6pm plus more HW and having to give up all your hobbies worth it for a tiny increase in grades.

Because for properly bright DCs that's all we are talking, the odd A instead of an A* a B for a French that they are never going to speak again in their lives.

If they get into a reasonable university and are happy does it matter.

Personally I'd rather they had a childhood and DH, me and her sister had a life that isn't curtailed by, but DD2 has HW in the holidays.

I went to a grammar, caught the bus there, and friends came from a wide geographical area. My dcs all go to local schools they can walk to.
I can only echo the thoughts you've already had - having teens and working myself, it is an enormous benefit that the schools are only a mile and a half away - they get some fresh air and exercise every day; they get to 'put the world to rights' as they walk to and fro with their friends; when they stay late for something (or it's a cookery day or similar) it's logistically do-able to arrange to pick them up - or we're all close enough that other parents do this as well and share the lifts on the odd occasions they need them. As they have grown up (I have 3, eldest is in Upper6th) then all the socialising is walkable - ds, this year has been to loads of 18th birthday parties, and can walk back from them all, but even younger, they can meet up / do things in the holidays.
However neither of my older two have been 'stretched/challenged' at their schools (youngest is in Yr7 so not really got there yet). Maybe I have very high standards due to my experience at grammar, but I've been disappointed how much the brighter dc are allowed to 'drift'. There will be indignant teachers on here saying this doesn't happen at their schools, and I hope it's not across the board, but I can only say what we've experienced.
Overall, if the transport links are good, knowing what I know now, I think I'd send mine to somewhere where they were challenged more if I had my time again.

Yes, having to travel to meet friends is inevitable here and it means secondary school meet ups still have all the logistical nightmares of primary ones.

Sometimes the DDs do wish they could just walk or catch a bus. Rather than having to agree times when parents can take them round work and siblings activities.

My DH had a massive commute to his school. It was (and is) a school with a superb reputation, but he wishes he had gone to school in his own town, to a perfectly acceptable school, so he could have made local friends. As it was, in his teenage years, he felt like a stranger amongst his peers in his home town - not being a socially confident person who would find it easy to hang on to primary school friends.

Go local.

Go local for all the excellent reasons outlined above.

Take the nearest school.

We are in a rural area with no public transport, there are no schools where the DDs aren't tied to council school buses.

Therefore every sports fixture, drama rehearsal, revision class and most days during DD1's upcoming GCSEs I'm a bloody taxi.

I have no idea how working parents cope. DD days the teachers have been taking some DCs home after revision classes. It's a total pita.

As for Ofsted and how the school teaches different ability groups?

Well - in DD1's 5 years at secondary her school has been "Good with outstanding features, satisfactory, in SM and Good again"

My daughter is at a school 15 miles away. She can get a train home if she stays at school no later than about 5.30 - any later than that I have to collect her. And if she has a party at the weekend or a rehearsal or a match at the weekend I have to take her. And her best friend lives 15 miles in the other direction- so a 60 mile round trip away.

I drove nearly 200 miles this weekend. If there is any other option, don't do it. What seems manageable with a year 7 becomes a logistical nightmare with an older teenager with interests and a social life.

Ds1 leaves home at 7am to travel to his outstanding grammar school. He stays for clubs a couple of times a week which means that he needs to be collected. He has only missed the school bus home once.
His friends all live many miles apart so we do have to take and collect him, however xbox has proved to be a very good friend. They often arrange to play together and talk on the headsets.
This was the right decision for ds1, he loves his life and is doing well. He also does a sporting activity outside of school, minimum 4hrs a week so he doesnt feel that he only has school in his life.
Ds2 brought a different challenge. Grammar school wasnt for him and our catchment school is apalling.
We looked at schools in the area and decided against the perceived best school in the area because the margins of results, although better had to be weighed up against the effects of travelling etc and we decided that he wouldnt gain anything.
We opted for a school within walking distance for him which was in special measures at the time.
There was a new head in place and the atmosphere was totally different to when we viewed it with ds1.
Ds2 is really happy and doing well, it was definitely the right decision for him.
The school is now rated good.
Look at all the schools before you make your decision, start now so you have time to see them all. Listen to what the leadership team has to say and talk to the students.
You have to do the right thing for your dc.

I think you need to find out how likely it is you would get a place if you applied using your current address. The last two/three years for secondary school allocation were of children of low birth years and the school probably wasn't full on catchment numbers. Once you have this information, you can then make qualified decisions about what you want to do.

Sorry for typos and grammar (on phone)

Hello, just thought I would add my thoughts having been the teen involved once upon a time. My partners opted for the poor but close by secondary school for me (with the very best intentions) but I must admit it has massively shaped my life and some of the biggest problems I am having to overcome now in my mod thirties I feel are partly due to the school I attended (bitter? Yes!). The expectations of the pupils, and their parents at that school were very low. The teachers tried but they were battling against a culture of a poor seaside town where a handful in GCSE's at grade D were seen as all you needed and no push for anything further. University was seen as something 'other people did' and not relevant to us. There were a few 'superstar' pupils who were pushed to their limits and treated as 'poster boys' for the school, but if you were averagely clever, with potential that needed pushing out, it just didn't happen. Honestly a secretary's job was seen as high flying when I left that school. Boys left and worked in a factory and the girls in care homes. It hasn't changed much in the last 15 years. The friends I made there and their families also tarnished my outlook despite my parents working hard to show my wider opportunities and horizon. Some of the people and their families are very lovely good kind people and I don't mean to put them down. But they are happy for generations and generations of them to work minimum wage and have babies very young and live in the same town with men down the pub for the rest of their life. If they are happy great, but I wanted more, but the school and society surrounding it, normalised this life to me as am impressionable 15 year old. Yes I know I am in control of my own life but I didn't understand all these things at 15. I know I sound snobby but honestly this impacts on me nearly every day still!

I considered a far away posh private girl's secondary for DD (she got L6s); over my dead body would I allow my 12yo to commute 2.5 hrs/day. She has a mate (live locally) who switched from the far away school to where DD is now; couldn't hack the commute, either.

Look at the local schools' & city schools' performance & inspection reports 6 or 12 yrs ago.
I suggest this because you don't have a crystal ball & schools change a lot. The most Desirable school 6-9 yrs ago in our local group now has the worst results. it looks like parents who bet on that Desirable school made the wrong choice, yet they did choose on the best info available. And plenty of individual kids still do very well there.

What do local parents say about the local schools; do you know any parents of high achievers at them, and how do these parents feel about their experience? Nearest high school has headline GCSE pass rates around 42%, I speak to lots of parents of very clever kids who are very pleased with this school.

We had this dilemma with dd now in yr 8

Local school has average to poor GCSE results, below target added value score

School further away has excellent GCSE results but the bus is at 7.05 and picks up a 20 minute walk away
No late school bus so any activities mean 2 buses home with a change at rush hour in a busy city centre

We spoke to the local school and it turned out there was a large transient population and a number of traveller families so the children at GCSE were not the same as those that started the school so the value added score was an unfair measure

Also because ofsted had flagged that the more able were not reaching their potential it was a real focus for the school

We went with the local school in the end, largely for social reasons and its worked out brilliantly

Dd finished yr7 on level 7s for maths, science and IT, and level 6 across the board for her other academic subjects
I've barely seen her this holiday as the majority of her friends are within walking distance

She's obviously yet to reach GCSE but I'm really pleased with our decision

Some of her primary friends went to the school further away and spent yr7 in an exhausted fog!