Secondary Schools Appeals - Typical Questions To/From Panel

But HPparent, parents do not get the opportunity to put their case at the first stage of the admissions process. It is only through the appeals process that social/educational/other reasons be raised so pupils who do have a real need to go to the school aren't always picked up first time round.

Wow MillyMollyMama! That shows the difference between areas. I don't think I have ever been on a panel which allowed an appeal on the basis of "educational need" as the admission criteria around here ultimately comes down to sibling/faith/band/distance.

Ultimately the only ones allowed are where the admissions authority have messed up (rare) or special/social needs have either been ignored or not brought up at the time of admission for various reasons and a good case is made why that particular school is the right one.

I think we also take the school prejudice argument quite seriously and know that if we do allow appeals that will normally take the class over 30 causing problems for the school and bump children on the waiting list further down, as no one else will be admitted until people leave.

I think a lot of people see the appeals process as a second shot at the admissions process while I think of it as more of a safety net to help those who really should have been offered the first time around.

Having been the LA representative at appeal panels, (advising the panel) I found the panel members were sympathetic to educational needs expressed by parents. The ones who researched the best place for their child were likely to succeed if space could be found. We regularly had schools taking in 33/34 per class with appeals. In the end they tended to increase the size of the school by building more classrooms! Frequently the schools would argue safety in science labs but panels can ignore this. We obviously argued hard on this point from a safety point of view and other parents at the school became concerned. It is a real dilemma. I also felt some stories from parents were just too remote from the educational issues that the panel were almost certain to refuse a place. I would therefore be very wary of not wanting to go on a coach. Where I worked, children with medical issues were not necessarily put above other appellants if the school they had been allocated could cope. This was usually sorted out in advance anyway. I agree with what others have said.

I'm not sure there's any value in trying to identify "typical" questions, because each appeal turns on its own facts and so the relevant questions will vary too.

The panel will be trying to test the assertions made on each side - from the school, that it is full and cannot take more pupils and, from the parents, that this is the only school that can meet their child's needs. How the panel does that will depend on the evidence and assertions in front of them.

I agree too with admission and HPparent.

After the parent has stated their case I would ask questions to try and clarify what they had said. Made up example:

"so you said that DC needs to go to St Gove's because he broke his leg 2 years ago, why is that? What problems does he experience? What is it about St Gove's that makes you consider it can best meet his needs?"

Basically probing questions such as what, why, how etc. Even if a parent has admitted they just "like it better" as quite a few do, I still try and get reasons out of them to give them a chance.

A good argument backed up by documentary evidence gives the greatest chance of success.

To be honest it is difficult to be sure what to ask as each case is different and you ask questions as a panel member to make sure you understand the case that is being presented from parents.

The school's case tends to be somewhat more predictable. I will always want to be sure what the actual facilities are in the school and just how near are they to bursting point. So I would always ask about the agreed net capacity and the maximum and minimum figures for net capacity. The maximum is the absolute maximum of pupils that can be accommodated from the measured rooms and the minimum is 90% of that figure. The agreed net capacity is normally between the two figures but does give you a check on how near to bursting the school is. Obviously you need to ask whether there have been any new facilities since the net capacity was last measured.

The other issue for me is always class sizes. There tends to be general comments made about small classrooms not being able to take 30 pupils. Well how many and how big are they. If they are above 52 sq metres they were probably built to take 30 pupils but the newish recommended level is 62 sq metres. The honest truth is that the vast majority of classrooms do not meet that new standard. But anything that is 48 and smaller is small for 30 pupils.

The other gem for me is the statement "the headteacher likes the school to have small classes, which is why we keep them to 25" or something similar. Very commendable but actually if the classroom is expected to hold 30 then it should do as far as I am concerned. As a parent we would all like to have a small class which your child is in, but there has to be some reality and if you want a place in the class then you do have to attack the school's case as much as is possible. The panel has to decide where the balance of prejudice lies. If you allow the school to present a case and do not contest it, then clearly the panel has to accept that case at face value and balance that against the case that you present. So always try and reduce the impact of what the school is saying so the prejudice bar is reduced as much as possible.

the school was aware with first burglary cos he took few days off and told them this time to as medical goes we had victom support twice come out but he didnt like it so we helped him cope over 3 years lots of reasurrance etc but then just wen he got bit confidence burglary in decemmber 2013 he didnt see docter etc and now he heard he have to go on own bus its flared up again his anxiety scared really unhappy but he ssing doctor on monday see if she can help

Sham80 I would strongly advise getting a letter from a GP, psychologist or other health professional who has seen the child and can state in the letter that he needs to attend that school. Proof of the crime is not enough you have to make the link between the child's fears and the need to attend that school. Presumably the current school is aware? A letter from the Head or Senco would also help.

Sorry to hear about your son and hope he is getting the help he needs and feels a bit more confident. You have all been through a stressful time.

am not appealing just on pan thats just extra stuff i found its social reason we had to breakins the last 1 just gone christmas time which has affected son a lot his confidence sense of security gone he wont play out alone so for this reason he to scared to travel alone on bus as i can pick him up have to pick a son from primary and all his friends are going to school am appealing for his support network his friends are all there so he will flourish more etc a got the crime ref numbers to proof not making it up

Sham80 there are quite a few appeal threads and posters have described the process more eloquently than I am able to.

Basically I would say to bring whatever evidence you want but you are unlikely to win an appeal on PAN alone. Even if you destroyed the schools case, other appellants might still have a greater argument than you to get a place and win their appeals. The panel may allow 1 or 2 appeals not 20 and they will be children who really need to go there.

I have seen people spend money on solicitors to minutely examine PAN but in my experience the panellists are likely to be familiar with all the arguments.

You need to argue why your child HAS to go to that school and that particular school alone and why no other school can meet his/her needs or is suitable.

just wondering weather to take the printed stuff of pan and final allocation of pupils. showing they took extra children will it help

hpparent am stressed to as to what to expect on appeal day letter came and is in may any information will be helful

Tiggytape makes a good point but we do have a school which has implemented a one way system because it is so cramped and decrepid, so you might want to take that into account.

We had another school which for years argued they could not go above pan - even had diagrams of their class room layout, it was a new build with I think 27 per class. Then they suddenly increased their intake to 30 per class. I was furious tbh.

It doesn't really work like that. I am a panellist and chair. We normally do ask questions to the school about their case, such as how the numbers admitted were arrived at and the consequences of adding an extra child. If the rules are complex we may also ask questions about that.

If the parent has a particular issue such as not understanding the rules or alleging that the school has not applied the criteria correctly we ask questions of the school to get to the bottom of it.

As for the parents, we ask questions to try and draw out what their case is. Many of the appeals I see simply boil down to a family preferring another school because results/behaviour are better or they want their child to be educated in a particular faith.

If there is a health or social reason for admission we try and bring it out and give the parents every chance to give their case. The successful appellants argue a strong case and are able to reply to questions in a way that strengthens that case.

Many cases are extremely weak but we want appellants to at least feel they have had a fair hearing. I always feel happy if we are able to allow appeals. I attended some last year where none were allowed - a depressing day for all.