Is it harder to get into a selective state school or selective independent school?

Dellon. interesting question as pupils in these state superselectives will be as bright if not brighter. Style of teaching that encourages more practice in thinking laterally and discussion? Pupil not choosing those universities in the state superselectives? Choice of subject increasing or decreasing chances?

Quite a few selective independents who get excellent A level results don't achieve the same level of entrance despite encouraging it so similar to the state selectives.
I think some schools like Westminster, KCS, MCS do well out a second very selective intake at sixth form rather than it being due to culling

He probably meant blond! Sorry couldn't resist cross posting...

There are roughly a thousand applicants for 250 places each year
but of course each of those pupils has applied for around four schools so in fact the number of applicants and places is pretty equal

in other words, "we can exercise our discretion on selection as we see fit because we are private and not state"

It depends what you mean by "harder to get into" - Eton reject many of the brightest in favour of the less bright who in their view may bring some other desired extras to the table whereas the superselective grammars will take only the brightest by rank (brightest according to their tests anyway) Eton quote:

"There are roughly a thousand applicants for 250 places each year, and each boy sits an entrance exam at the age of 11 as well as Common Entrance at 13. A third of those boys who finish in the top 100 in the school’s exam at the age of 11 will not be offered a place because, as the headmaster, Tony Little, says: “We are not just looking for bright boys.”"

Our local comp has a few places for out-of-catchment children - chosen based on an exam
I'd be interested to know what school that is as I was not aware that "comps" were allowed to use exams

OP
in the big scheme of things, even the most "selective" fee paying school in the world will open its doors to a pupil whose family have the right amount of money / connections (Eton were never going to say no to Harry were they ...)

a state selective school of the academic variety just goes on its exam results

religious selective schools bring out the crassest hypocrisy in parents
as at primary level, kids do not yet know their own mind anyway

We have one semi selective state school in our area & way harder than most of the Indies & at least as difficult as the others.

I don't know dellon. I know that the school I mentioned as being the subject of the 11+ thread denies it, but there were enough angry parents on the thread for it to be clear that wasn't true.

I know you were comparing it the other way round, but I guess my point was simply that you can never be quite sure what lies behind those amazing results claimed by any school.

does Tiffin cull at sixth form out of interest?

Surely the extra-curricular stuff does make a difference to the private schools. Not saying that it would make up for truly poor academic performance but I bet that a dc who got 65% in the exams but was an amazingly good sports player or gifted musician might well pip someone at 70% who doesn't have that to offer.

this kind of information should be transparent ...especially if you are paying for the school

I don't know dellon but I have heard that some schools (both selective state and independent) can be utterly ruthless in terms of "culling" after GCSEs. There was a huge thread fairly recently on one of the 11+ forums about a super-selective state school at which even an A* GCSE does not necessarily allow you to continue to study an A level in the same subject!

Maybe a factor?

You have to ask though if the superselective grammars are harder to get into (suggestion being they then are even more selective in their intake based purely in academics), why do the indies like Winchester, St Paul's, Westminster, KCS etc. do so much better on their Oxbridge entrance successes than the likes of Tiffin (especially since Oxbridge claim not to take extra-curriculars into account)? Is is superior teaching or deluxe preparation? Not meant to be contentious ...but an observation.

and Westminster ...how could i forget "the best school in the world"

TheBeautifulVisit

I think the extras matter for the hugely oversubscribed public schools like Harrow, Wellington and Eton.

My sons were both offered selective schools (including habs) and they didn't so much as play the recorder.

One of mine managed to get a highish score (enough for a music place) in the S.W.Herts state consortium music audition by singing a rugby song.

True ThreeBee. And have you seen the cut-offs for a child living outside the catchment for Parmiters? Pretty daunting, because there are only three (I think) places available.

We also found that lots of canny parents are using the state 11+ tests for all sorts of areas as a practice run for the independent school tests. I'm not sure what effect that has on the cut-off marks required as it's standardised (and for the life of me I can't get to grips with standardisation!), but the marks do seem to be very slowly creeping upwards.

It depends where you live, too.

The Watford grammars (yes I know they're not really grammars) have different cut-offs for inner and outer catchment areas.

Agree with JustADadHere - we are in South Herts too, and the schools he lists are tough nuts to crack due to the sheer numbers of applicants chasing the places. I know of a couple of boys who didn't get places at QE Boys but were awarded places at Habs, one with a scholarship.

Were they super-academic though TheBeautiful?

It is surely all about supply and demand as others have said. Demand for grammars considerably outstrips supply relative to the ratio for this for independent schools in these hot spot areas.

It's quite sad that an exceptionally gifted writer or maths whizz can't get a grammar place because of the need to be even across both subjects.

dellon - I'm not sure there's much of an 'extras' hoop to jump through at some independent selectives, provided you meet their academic requirements. Perhaps it matters for a borderline candidate or for the likes of Westminster.

My sons were both offered selective schools (including habs) and they didn't so much as play the recorder. DS2 talked about Pokemon during his habs interview. I remember the feeling of shame.

I live in Southern Hertfordshire, the hot spot for school competitiveness. Around here, it is much much harder to get into a state super selective than it is an independent - if nothing else but for the number of applicants. This year QE Barnet had between 1800-2200 applicants (reports vary) for 180 spots. DAO had around 1600 for 65 spots. The two Watford Grammars and Parmiters had around 1500 for 50 spots. Compare that to MTS: 350 applicants for 72 spots. Habs: 400 for 72. St Albans: 250 for 72.

I think it is a little self-selecting, however. If your child is borderline academically, then it is hard to justify spending £100 for each independent's exam, but if taking the exam is free, then anyone can take it - I would theorise that this would lead to the applicants to the independents on average being more academic than the applicants to the state schools.

An additional factor is that in order to get a spot at the state schools, a child needs to remarkably adept at all three (or four) categories of testing (VR/NVR/Maths/English) while the independents have the freedom to take a border line (for example) Maths student if the English score is off the charts (which is, I am pretty sure, why my son got offers from Indies and barely passed the minimum at QE and the Watford Consortium).

It depends of course on the grammar and the indie in question ...someone else posted here recently that their DS got a place at Westminster but not Tiffin...but selection criteria are also different ...leading selective indies look at a range of data: head's report, interview, extra curriculars like music and sports as well as entrance exam results...the superselective grammars can only look at rankings in an 11+ test .......all those state schooled children in particular whose be all and end all aim is to get into the superselective grammar because parents can't afford private and other options are dire may have been prepping intensively for the grammar school tests for 18 months - 2 years beforehand, something the prep school types with other options for secondary and lots of extra curriculars/sport in their child's schedule may not have done either because they were 1) naive or 2) not motivated to do that kind of intensive prep because of the private options held in reserve either as fall back or as first choice.

The there will be the ones who get into superselective grammar who will not get into leading indies because they don't have enough extras to bring to the table or simply don't shine at interview.

I am nowhere near London, BUT if you want either a private school or a grammar school here the grammar is much harder to get into.

The boys grammar is about 10 miles away and the girls is roughly 15 miles. The area that children are applying from is so vast that only the very top performing students will get a place. There is one private school in our (small) city, which has reasonable results but not significantly superior to the local comps for many parents. Therefore, getting a place at the private school (whilst still selective) would be easier.