Is it harder to get into a selective state school or selective independent school?

Tiffin Girls obviously themselves think Oxbridge success is up there in terms of a yardstick of success as a school ...their 2013 Governor's reports calls it out on the first page:

"The girls continue to perform in an outstanding way. Students in Year 13 have received more offers from Oxbridge this year than ever before."

Have looked at Tiffin boys' leaver destinations - they had fewer Oxbridge places than Westminster last year but twice as many medics. I think that probably explains the apparent disparity.

what an ignorant comment ....the point is if you can get as many as 45% into Oxbridge then it shows you have gone above and beyond the grunt work of A levels ...instead of being anti-Oxbridge you should be demanding to know why the creme de la creme of the state sector isn't doing as well as the best indies on that score....this is not a state vs indie question, but in our case a legitimate reason for choosing indie...

dalliancethat stat just shows that Tiffin has more imagination
only thick people think Oxbridge is the be all and end all

And as for girls' schools:

St Paul's Girls - 45% Oxbridge
Tiffin Girls - 15% Oxbridge

Just makes me wonder why the huge difference given this thread seems to be leaning towards superselective states being just as hard if not harder to get into as the selective indies.

DS may well end up at the same uni with same grades as he would from the grammar...(although admittedly Oxbridge chances are much higher % wise at the indie which just seems to be really geared up on that front) but we are interested in the journey as much as the end result ....again wish we felt differently then the grammar would be a no-brainer. I just feel the top grammars like Tiffin Boys with their super selective cohort should be getting similar Oxbridge success as the top indies like St Paul's, Westminster etc. given the raw material they start with and given Oxbridge is trying harder than ever to increase the state intake % wise.

I wonder whether, as well as all of the reason we discussed previously for the differences in Oxbridge places, that pupils at the very good independent schools benefit from more time in the company of many interesting / intelligent teachers, not just limited to standard lesson time as in the selective state schools. Also the small pupil teacher ratio in the lessons must help to produce better discursive lessons.

thymeout

I agree - DS got into one of the top five superselective grammars...the desire to save the £££ is very tempting and others may think it mad, but because of the reasons you stated we've chosen the very selective academic indie (I am sure the grammar and the indie will have equally bright children) because the indie aims to go well beyond the curriculum ..... the overriding factors are that I want my non-conformist, quirky DS to learn how to think and do independent research ...not just accumulate A* and secondly, the extra curriculars by way of music, drama and sport are a cut above at the indie.

Yes - dellon. That's something that's occurred to me, too. I live close to 2 superselective grammars, and, given the competition to get in, I'd expect more Oxbridge places.

I think it may be partly the entrance exam, which is like the old 11+, and the vast majority are intensively coached for it. No interviews. Quirky or 'spiky profile' generally doesn't cut it. And also, perhaps, a lack of flair and experimentation in the teaching. They tend to be very conformist places. Whereas somewhere like Westminster seems to go out of its way to select the more interesting candidates and has the confidence to allow its teachers more leeway in an individual approach to the teaching of their subjects.

Mind you, they also spend a fair bit of time coaching Oxbridge candidates for their interviews.

Although I agree it is very hard to get into the state super selectives, I'm not sure their tests always successfully pick out the brightest kids. Quite a few of DCs friends who got scholarships at Westminster, KCS, Colet/St Paul's, didn't get places at QE Barnet or Tiffin. Equally, quite a few of their friends who were bright, but not exceptionally bright (and definitely not at the same level as the scholarship kids), got places at QE and Tiffin but missed out on places at KGS, Colet court, Latymer Upper or Hampton. Some of the friends that got places for their DCs at QE and Tiffin did a lot of practice!

I think Eton boys going on to be world kings has more to do with them being born world princes in the first place than what they do in the five years at Eton...it just happens to attract that sort. Cameron was superbly placed (money wise and status wise and married well) to begin with and didn't do remarkable things at Eton it seems to make him stand out as most likely to be PM one day.

I think the state schools are MORE academically selecti

And don't forget there's a lot of movement at sixth form. So boys at QE Barnet might easily move to St Albans and St Albans boys might easily move into the state sector. So it's all very confusing as to which school has groomed its pupils for the most glory.

The ISI reports often state the average (or a range of) MidYis scores on entry. Eton's is remarkably low but that probably means it's a superb school as its boys often go on to be world king, or some such.

The private schools locally used to be superior (when I was at school) - if you passed to get into one of the private schools, you were thought of as the brightest of the bright. One of my colleagues attended one of the best private schools in the area and was told from the age of 11 that for the rest of their lives, whenever they walked into a room, they could be confident they were the brightest person there .

We are lucky to have exceptional grammar schools locally too - and I think the children who would perhaps have gone private, with the economic downturn, are opting for the state grammars. That means the state grammar results have gone up, and the private schools have had to fill their places with slightly less able children. So the grammar school results have continued to go up, and the private schools are struggling to match that. State grammar now becoming the preferred choice regardless of finances - so definitely harder to get into state than private where we are.

I'm in the same area as ThreeBee and yes they are generally called comprehensives despite selecting 25% by academic ability and 10% on music in the case of our nearest.

really?

didn't know comps had academic selection tests thought it was only grammars...or did you mean some of those?

• within

Plenty of schools round our way that count as comprehensives, but the only way to get a place is to live with 300m, have a sibling already there, or score in the top 5% in a test of academic aptitude.

certainly know got into westminster but not tiffin. pre test westminster same year as tiffin. Lots of LEH and Hampton but not tiffin boys or girls.

to your last but one comment on international students

this is absolutely the case summerends.

Eton and Winchester don't have very many at all coming into the sixth form so can't just be that.

Also the proportion of very bright international students are competing for places in some of these schools which in turn may up Oxbridge / Ivy League entrance percentages.

summerends - all the schools you mention and likes of Winchester do make a big deal about going way beyond the curriculum (which Oxbridge likes) and doing individual research projects in sixth form, as well as having another highly selective and sizeable intake at sixth form, and I wonder if that also has something to do with it.

Don't really agree Talking as they are already a carefully selected bunch of applicants since most only apply if head fully supports the application and thinks boy has a fair chance (and head's report matters a lot) and secondly suspect nearly all, except some of those who also apply for Westminster, have Eton as first choice so much less likely to be applicants who just "have a go" (and registration fees approaching £300)

You could use the same argument for the superselective grammars like Tiffin who have candidates who apply from miles around who are also applying for all the Bucks grammars and many of whom may be just having a go since it's free to apply