A level further maths - why is it treated so differently?

We do CIE and Edexcel IGCSE (depending on set).

She thinks she wants to do a Maths degree, but how do we know whether she is really up to doing Further Maths at A level?

Because she got an A* in maths taken early, is enjoying further maths GCSE and wants to do a maths degree! She sounds like an ideal candidate.

It's bizarre that you are worried that she isn't brilliant at maths. Seriously, with that record, she is!

Ds is finding core 3 and 4 easier than core1
As i said above in OCR i am sure you can mix some of the modules between Maths and FM.
However ds school has changef from OCR to AQA this year as it is easier to get resourses.

AS & A2 Maths in Yr 12 followed by AS & A2 Further Maths in Yr 13. Which is better?
Good question. I suspect those who do AS Maths & Further Maths in Yr 12 might find the pace easier. On the other hand the A2 modules seem to be a huge step up in difficulty and you might be lulled into a false sense of security..
The reason I say this is because I know a lot of DS1s friends did fairly well in core 1 and core 2 which are the pure maths AS modules. They then bombed core 3 and core 4.

Having said that for those aiming to do a maths degree at a top uni I think that doing all the maths A level topics in Y12 may help with applications and admissions tests.

Just my feeling as a parent of a DS doing maths who lives and breathes maths and never talks about anything but maths

My daughter is Yr 11, has A* GCSE maths taken early, and is doing GCSE Further Maths in June (fitting it in as an extra since finishing GCSE Maths in Nov). She is really enjoying the further maths, and hoping to go on to do Maths and Further Maths (plus Physics and Economics) at AS. However, I am a little worried, having read this thread, that Further Maths is going to be very difficult. I know she is good at Maths, but I don't think she would be necessarily be described as brilliant.

She thinks she wants to do a Maths degree, but how do we know whether she is really up to doing Further Maths at A level? Of course the staff are encouraging her to do it, as they want to keep their numbers up, and (I think) get more girls doing Maths and Physics. The way that the school she will probably go to (hers doesn't have 6th form) teaches it is AS Maths & Further Maths in Yr 12, A2 in both in Yr 13 - however she does have the choice of a different school which does AS & A2 Maths in Yr 12 followed by AS & A2 Further Maths in Yr 13. Which is better?

I know I am old but I didn't realise even A levels were modular these days? How do they divide the Further Maths A level up then?

In my day (starts up the rocking chair) we took Maths A level in Lower Sixth (year 12?) (sort of as practice was how it was billed) and then FM in Upper Sixth (year 13, I guess). If you got an A in LS you left it at that and concentrated on the other subjects or if, like me, you didn't, you retook Maths A level in US to get a better grade.

Like MinesAPintofTea says, it makes sense that the Maths modules would be taught in Yr 12 and the FM ones in yr 13 as the syllabus is (presumably still) divided effectively into the easier half of Applied and Pure Maths and the harder half.

titchy, yes, you could derive everything to addition. So what are the skills that make some fail and others get A and A*?

You can argue that about everything in Maths though can't you - it all derives from one basic function - addition!

I hope it won't hijack the conversation if I ask what are the qualities and skills that make some students succeed and some other fail?

I just looked randomly at the MEI FP2 book, hoping to find scary things I wouldn't know where to start with. It's been so long since I did any maths, but it appears to me that everything in that book derives from basic algebra and geometry. I don't understand what is the fuss.

What im trying to say is the C is because he underperforming, not because thats all he is capable of.

But if he gets the retake right he will be an A. He got the E because he didnt revise properly that module, he is obviously not struggling with the rest of it. As others are saying its all or nothing.

I agree with noble

The trouble with further maths / university maths is it is quite possible to have no idea how to attempt a question at all (in which case you get zero marks for it).

I suspect that with most other A levels (though also perhaps not sciences) it is possible to answer something, even if your answer is not very good.

So for Further maths a struggling student is likely to not get a D, rather a U.

Cerisier Interesting - I had understood that calculus was no longer part of GSCEs, and barely covered in A Levels. Perhaps it has been reinstated? I'm pleased - I loved calculus

I thought you can chop and change some of the modules (ocr) between Maths and Further Maths if you are doing both, at least that's what DS tells me. DS is sitting on a C in FM at the moment but that is made up of an A, a very high B and an E. He is retaking the E as he did no revision for it, so could turn it from an E to A, so agree it appears to be an all or nothing subject

It's a genuine risk that teachers would probably advise an insecure candidate against taking.
When we took DS2 around sixth forms I was a little surprised that all the maths teachers were encouraging him to take FM as well as maths. He has an A* in maths GCSE but is by no means gifted at maths. I know this because his brother is gifted at maths.
There were no words of caution or any hint that it was only for the brave.
He is not doing it.

Less brilliant kids aren't likely to get Cs or Ds in further maths, the chance is that they would struggle so much they would bomb out completely. It's a genuine risk that teachers would probably advise an insecure candidate against taking.

My DD is currently doing further maths as she will need it for her degree choice. In an academic school with a selective 6th form there are less than half a dozen pupils doing FM and as they all take 4 subjects to AS level and then drop one for A2 only those who really need it and are going to get a A will continue.

I think it really needs to be looked at more of an extension subject for bright maths pupils

Seeline I teach GCSE and A level Maths and FM. The GCSE course we use covers calculus and functions as well as all the usual topics and is a challenging course, it covers far more topics than my old O level course did.

The A level courses we offer are also rigorous. I disagree that the content has changed, certainly the pure is pretty much the same as ever.

Having worked as a computer programmer and software designer for 10 years, I don't think Further Maths is necessary at all for them. A logical brain yes, but A level maths will develop this.

I suspect also, that ICT is one of those subjects that kids who are not aiming for A*/A/B get shunted into and hence the lower grades overall.

Its not nonsense: a lot of schools teach the maths modules in year 12 and the further maths modules in year 13. Its normal to give twice as much teaching time for this, but it means that the pupils have to understand all the normal maths material in year 12 and then go on to learn the further maths stuff in year 13.

Especially if you want to do something with a maths component (which isn't a maths degree) its more important that you thoroughly understand the basic maths A-level than get two but don't fully grasp the material.

Your school might do things differently, but my point about harder material learnt faster still stands.

Same with my son Seeline, he dropped the subject part way through and quite honesty, it was a waste of time for him as an aspiring engineer.

Agree - further maths is not just MORE maths - it is a completely different range of topics. Like MummyPigs I started it as a 4th A level in the 80's, having got an A at O Level. I dropped it after a year because it made no sense at all. I went on to get both Maths and Physics A Levels. I think if you are likely to 'only' get a C or a D in FM, it would have been a miracle if you had finished the course. I think it is really all or nothing.
It would probably be better if everyone had a better grounding in Maths, by increasing the scope of the GCSE. As I understand it they now cover far fewer topics than the old O Level. Alot of what I did at A Level is now considered to be degree level