A level further maths - why is it treated so differently?

DD2 is choosing A level options at the moment. Her school only want her to do 4 AS subjects and 3 at A2. They are strongly discouraging her from doing FM as she is not intending to do a degree in maths and it would limit her options for other degrees - unless she wants to do engineering. She is probably going to opt for maths, chemistry, biology and physics at AS.
DD1 is doing maths AS this year - it does seem to be the case that they either 'get it' and are getting mainly As in the mocks or they don't get it and are getting Ds and below. I assume FM is even more like that.

FM is only offered as a 5th subject to AS and as a 4th at A2 at DCs school

Our higher sets sit the CIE Marni. They also sit the additional Maths FSMQ.

That's a good point YATR. I don't know if things have changed, but when I took A levels, it was almost unheard of to take Maths, Further Maths + 1 other subject. So I imagine that few students taking FM drop down to the standard 3 A2 levels. Therefore you have to be someone who can cope with the workload. If you are an able mathematician, then A level Maths will take you far less time than if you struggle with it. It isn't like a humanities or arts subject where an essay will take 2 hours to write irrespective of your aptitude and it is only the quality of the output that differs.

Further Maths isn't always counted as a seperate A' level if you plan to study medicine. SEE HERE for info on The Student Room (which is usually but not always reliable)

Cerisier when you say CIE or Edexcel IGCSE depending on set, which would you say was easier? I'm hoping it's Edexcel as that's what DD's doing and maths isn't her strongest subject!

far fewer take further than take maths
and they tend to be the very brightest
www.psc.ac.uk/results/results.php?r=2
and lots give it up after the AS
www.psc.ac.uk/results/results.php

As far as University Maths goes, I think it depends on whether you want to concentrate on Pure or Applied Maths. You might be perfectly secure at understanding equations and how to manipulate and apply them, but completely turned off by having to provide pages of proofs.

Maths is a subject that builds on itself. More so than almost any other subject that I have studied. If you don't fully understand GCSE then you will struggle with at least some of the A2 content. If you don't understand the A2 content then A2 FM will be a struggle. Similarly a poor grade at FM A2 would indicate that you would struggle at degree level. The amount of remedial teaching available at university will vary depending on the ability of the intake.

Maths (at least at school level, I am not sure about university) is also a subject with right answers. If you have got a C or D grade at FM A2 then you will have spent quite a long time getting wrong answers. It would surprise me if anyone wanted to study maths at university following that experience. I can see that studying a subject with lots of mathematical content would be different, though you might find maths a limiting factor in how far you could get.

Sorry, that's a bit of a digression, but it's the old story - three A levels taught and passed well, are better than 4 not quite so good ones.

Yes, but my son is now a Mechanical Engineer and Chartered also (having been to two good universities).

In his case the Further Maths was a distraction. We felt that it was largely due to the quality of teaching at the school - they were trying to shoe horn too much into the timetable, without sufficient resources and making something of a mess of it.

Maybe taught well, it would have helped. I don't know, I must ask him some time. I actually think that had they thought 4 A levels were worthwhile they would have been better encouraging a subject which required essay writing skills. Engineers have to write reports for much of their work.

I agree with noblegiraffe.

I have 2 MEng students in the family. Both are very thankful that they took further maths & it has definitely helped with their degree studies.

What I forgot to say is that one of his applications was Bristol for Meng. They have rejected him for Mech eng but have invited him for an interview for Mathematics in Engineering which is also a Meng.

When I did maths A Levels, they had shunted off the hard stuff into the further maths syllabus. Some of the harder pure maths that used to be part of the regular A Level had been moved to 'further'.

So it was definitely harder than normal maths. The bits of Mechanics that involved calculus were on the Further syllabus, for example.

I can only imagine that by now with the ongoing dumbing down process that this will have been exacerbated.

LaVulcan. I hate to say this but an aspiring engineer is much better off having further maths if possible. The best universities like it (MEng courses) and certainly for mechanical, civil, structural. It means a student should have no trouble accessing the degree course content. People who did engineering years ago like my DH did not need it, and hardly anyone took it, but now it definitely helps get a place on a top course and so many more students take it. It should be a 4th A level and it is obviously taken by the most able, and definitely by aspiring engineers, not just mathematicians!

My DS is applying for engineering degrees at uni. We (well mainly he) did have a little fight with school about predicted grades. Original predicted grade was A (mths) B (physics) C (FM) however got it improved to A* B B. It was helped that he managed to get a Gold in the Senior Maths Challenge the week before the UCAS application went in.

He does have an A* A A offer from Southampton and he is still waiting for a few others.
DS is complicated as he is dyslexic so does make silly mistakes ie calculator on the wrong setting, but stretches his teachers with the questions he asks. I think ds is seen as a bit of an oddity and gets away with a lot ie he got an A at GCSE so shouldnt have been allowed to take Further Maths but he got away with it.

Advise, not advice!

I don't think anyone said an A* at GCSE made you brilliant at maths, but I would definitely advice against further maths a-level if you haven't got one.

"However, I am a little worried, having read this thread, that Further Maths is going to be very difficult."

But equally, it could be very easy for her, you just can't tell until you are half way through the syllabus. What is certain though is that in order to do Further Maths you have to have 100% grasp of the Maths syllabus, so the worst case is she drops FM half way through and improves Maths by a grade or two.

"I know she is good at Maths, but I don't think she would be necessarily be described as brilliant."

You don't have to appear brilliant at GCSE to do FM - I was in the top 10 at my (grammar) school in O level maths tests and mocks but got one of the highest marks in the country in A level FM.

"The way that the school she will probably go to (hers doesn't have 6th form) teaches it is AS Maths & Further Maths in Yr 12, A2 in both in Yr 13 - however she does have the choice of a different school which does AS & A2 Maths in Yr 12 followed by AS & A2 Further Maths in Yr 13. Which is better?"

I think the first way is better. That means she is doing FM topics alongside (or in sequence with) straight Maths; if it turns out she can't handle the FM she can drop it after taking the AS. With the "1 year course" approach you don't get to find out if you can't handle FM until half way through Y13 and then what? Also note that if aiming for Cambridge Natural Sciences or similar highly competitive courses, an A in Y12 won't count towards your offer, you will still be expected to get A*AA (or more) in Y13.