A level further maths - why is it treated so differently?

YET ANOTHER ZOMBIE MATHS THREAD

Note - this thread has been resuscitated after 5 years and some of the discussion about GCSE and A level content and structure is obsolete.

And re the last post, in the event my DD somehow got an A* in FM but an A in maths.

A-Level Further Maths is a lot harder, and I mean a lot, harder than A-Level Maths. From the very first lesson you will be chucked in the deep end with matricies and then go onto set theroy and it just goes on...

The reason A-Level Further Maths is so hard (in my opinion) is because every single piece of content you learn is completly new, furthermore, once you have learnt that content you are expected to rememebr it and apply it in other topics.

Therefore, if you a miss a lesson you will understand the next topic and therefore, the topic after that - which can cause you to fall behind massively.

If you want a full explaination and complete breakdown of how hard A-Level Further Maths really is, check out this article.

'computer programmer' can mean all sorts of things. I could be called a programmer, writing code is what I do - but the entry level for what I do is PhD chemistry - for some sorts of programming knowing a subject to write about is what's important. So in some cases FM will be useful; but for some applications science subjects or arts or humanities might actually be what's needed, so long as you can write good enough code.

Why would you do further maths if you were only going to get a C or D? You'd be better off getting a higher mark in a different subject.

Also, you don't need FM to become a computer programmer, that's a misconception that I wish people didn't believe as then we might have more programmers! For Engineering and Physics at uni, then yes, FM is very useful. Even if the universities don't require it. But for CS I think you'd be fine with just maths.

I agree with getting kids to study maths for as long as possible, but I think it's better done by having more people doing maths a-level, not more doing further maths :)

My chemistry degree had two different subsid maths courses depending on what maths A-levels you'd done.

Don't worry yourlittlesecret, when I went to university there were two first year maths courses, one for those with FM and one for those without. This may be what is offered at Nottingham for whatever course your DS is applying for.

From the wording of the trinity guidelines, FM isn't made an absolute requirement because not all schools offer it.

Yourlittlesecret the step up from A level to degree level maths is quite something so your DS might be glad of having a bit of an advantage. Even when most of the students have further maths A level they still have to go over stuff again in the first year because everyone has studied different modules.

unis are reluctant to make it part of their entry requirements, then you see then moaning that A-level maths isn't a good enough grounding for their degree programme
DS went to an open day at Nottingham. They said not to worry if you were not doing further maths because it would be covered in the first year.
He is doing FM and didn't want to spend his first degree year going over old ground.

Complex numbers are essential to some science and engineering subjects - are they only covered in FM? (I'm old so did separate Pure and Applied maths, so no idea what is considered as 'further' ... complex numbers despite their name seem to me relatively straightforward.)

I agree with MollyMawk, I am pretty good at Maths as are my kids and I use calculus on a regular basis in my job. But once we got to complex numbers, my head exploded. So maybe it is a either-get-it-or-you-don't subject and that maybe explains the high percentage of A/A*.

That high percentage does rather entice you/your kids to do it though, doesn't it?

The famous Trinity College guide to A-level subject combinations makes it pretty clear that for some subjects if you can take FM you must. My DD is in yr10 and is thinking of electronic engineering... she's already perplexed which subjects to drop.

LaVolcan - the appropriate grounding for physics/chemistry degrees is the existing A levels. If you're going to do chemistry you want physics and maths and then either biology or FM depending which way you tend.

@LeapingOverTheWall DD2 is on a placement this year so is enjoying a break from studying!

The thing about maths that I recall from my long-ago schooldays, is that it is easy until suddenly it becomes impossible. There doesn't seem to be anything in between. So maybe FM is an A/B-or-nothing type of subject.

Is that still true of a student in line for a D grade, though?

I accept I'm very likely wrong, I'm just thinking this is not a thread about young geniuses who're going to walk an A*, is it? The point is this is about those students who might get a C or a D.

Again, not certain, but I have been told that to get a D grade at AS Maths (so a few steps down from A2 Further Maths, obviously) you actually barely need more than you did to get an A at GCSE. If that's even close to true, I would think there must be quite a gulf between the people who get A at Further Maths, and those who get a D or a C. And I wonder if they perhaps aren't very much like those who get the A* grade? Often students at the lower end are effectively blamed for their own grades instead of being given the advice they need.

LRD
I'm an accountant
we never sign accounts off as "accurate"
only ever "true and fair"
BUT
Maths, particularly up to A level, is something that students can progress at almost in isolation : hence the regular reports of young teenagers hetting high Maths grades

Though this probably says more about how crap I am at maths so do ignore me.

Maybe so ... I only said it because that is one of the things that really hit me about A Level Maths, and my mum who teaches it says it is the single biggest problem students have. They think it is 'right' or 'wrong'. They struggle with the fact it isn't. Whereas with other subjects, perhaps students are more accustomed to the fact there are gradations of 'rightness'?

LRD
it is compared with English or Art

Maths is right or wrong

No, it isn't.

Maths is useful in a wide range of subjects, the sciences and social sciences require some maths. Maths A-level is not just for students who want to study maths so needs to be relatively wide access, not just to the best mathematicians. This was the reason a lot of the old content was moved to further maths - to increase take-up. So further maths is the A-level that students who want to take maths or maths-based degrees should be studying.

Unfortunately as not all sixth forms offer further maths, unis are reluctant to make it part of their entry requirements, then you see then moaning that A-level maths isn't a good enough grounding for their degree programme

Maths is right or wrong
kids who "get it" can advance us the curriculum very, very fast
the majority of them have levelled back out by the age of 22
but for those early developers, an extended maths curriculum is almost essential

in all other subjects there are enough unknowns to keep pupils and teachers guessing within one standard deviation of the normal curriculum