daughter year 12 struggling

I think year12 is a steep learning curve for them all, and a big shock to the system! FWIW, my DS got 6As and 4Bs at GCSE, then went on to do biology, chemistry, maths and economics AS. He got CCDE in AS mocks, then BCCC in AS. We then got tutors and he worked his socks off, did some resits, and learnt good exam techniques, and got AAA in chemistry, biology and maths. It's doable, but bloody hard! I'm so proud of him!

I agree with Senua.

The bottom line is that she will need a good working knowledge of maths if she wants to be a scientist.If she is faltering at the first step, there is no guarantee she is going to cope with it at uni , especially if she has had an 18 month break.

bigbluebus - I totally agree about getting ahead of the game. Open days have to be planned around other family commitments.

Something to get across to your DS is that if he is idling now then he is going to get a very nasty shock in a couple of months time when he hits the AS exams. Many people do well at GCSE, getting by on last minute revision and native wit. AS is a whole different ball game.

Midnight - because if she is looking at a good grade in classics it will serve her better fit university applications than a poor grade in maths. To get into most science degrees you need two science A levels plus another A level (with may be science, maths or another subject entirely). A levels are a means of assessing who should get in. Very few assumptions will be made by university staff regarding subject knowledge of undergraduates once they are in the first year, simply because of the broad range of combinations and backgrounds that a cohort of 300+ will have.

I would drop classics. Whilst others have said to drop the maths as it is harder to get a good grade in, what is the point in getting a good grade if it doesn't fit in with your career plan and you don't want to take it further?

Thank you all for your advice. This is all new to me - and DS.
I didn't go to Uni/Poly at all and DH went to a Poly, so it is not us that is wanting DS to go to Uni - RG or otherwise. It is DS who seems to have got it into his head that RG Uni is the only option and that anything else is considered a failure

I would rather he looked at one of the apprenticeship schemes for A level students (although appreciate these are probably just as difficult to get into as a RG Uni) if he wants to do Engineering, so that he can work and study at the same time. His 6th form have encouraged him to look at other options too. The difficulty is DS - he is more than capable of getting the grades he needs for RG but is basically lazy - he has never really had to work hard and got his A's at GCSE without much effort. He would have got A*s if he had worked hard. That is why he is finding such a big jump between GCSE & AS - he is putting in very little work - which isn't going to get him the results he wants. BUT, he is convincing himself that if he cruises and then puts in a bit of effort before the exams, he will come up trumps. Sadly, no one else is convinced that he will put in the work needed.

But thank you everyone for those links. I will encourage DS to investigate other Unis, as well as having an informative look myself. His College do hold a meeting later in the year to provide such info but I wold prefer it if we could research open days etc now and plan ahead as I have a disabled DD, so can't just drop everything at the last minute to ferry DS around the country - and we live in a rural area, so public transport is not the finest before anyone jumps on me and says he should be able to get himself to open days

bigbluebus - why not ex-poly? My DD is very much wanting to study Biochemistry at Nottingham Trent (former Trent & Nottingham polys). It has lovely new labs which DD was very much taken by.

The thing is visit, visit, visit. Your DS needs to look at the teaching facilities. Listen closely to admissions tutors talks. What is the emphasis of the school? My DD was put off one university because its main emphasis was Biomedical Science and Biochem was a tacked on afterthought. DD didnt apply to another RG university because the labs were old and unloved.

RG universities are that because of their research not for their undergraduate teaching.

Sorry for the double post, I wanted to respond to Senua

I think a lot of people advocating the "give in" route have personal experience of "struggling on". I know I do. I struggled with A-level maths massively, and a lot of the topics just didn't click for me. I did ok at AS level and got a B (after an A* at GCSE). I was persuaded by my school to continue with it, and ended up with a D overall (partly due to not getting the "decision" module at all, and really struggling with the advanced topics). I was taking 4A2s (another mistake) and I feel that studying maths had a negative impact on my other subjects, dragging down my January A2 results. I managed to turn things around by basically ignoring maths in the run up to my June exams.

Struggling on often leades to disproportionate time being devoted to that subject- which often makes the difference between an A and a B or an A and an A* in other subjects. Getting, say ABCC at AS, instead of AAB will make a university application weaker. Biology is a hard A-level, with lots of content to learn, and I think OP's daughter will struggle to get an A in it if she is having to spend most of her time on maths and chemistry.

There is only so much hard work that one person is capable of.

Bigbluebus Given your son is now 16, why don't you let him do some research about where he might like to go? You shouldn't dismiss ex-polys out of hand, often they will have areas of specialism which they are very good at. Subject specific (rather than general) league tables are a good place to start- as well as researching courses online. He should chose a course which matches his areas of interest closely.

As has been said, for many science careers, you will be looking to go on to do post-graduate study after the degree. The most important thing is not where you did your undergraduate, but getting a 2.1, which will ensure you can get onto a wide range of post-graduate courses. The best way to ensure this is chosing a university where he will be happy, and will enjoy the course, rather than just chosing somewhere solely by ranking.

The Russel group is a research lobby group. Being a member of the Russel group does not guarentee a good student experience, high league table rankings or good graduate prospects in your chosen career.

As an example, Lancaster is a very good university (top 10/20) for many STEM subjects, that is not in the Russel group. Surrey is also very good for engineering, and again not in the Russel group. Bath is also top 10 in these areas. However, as they are near the top of these fields, they will not be easy to get into- it would be easier to get into a Russel group university which doesn't specialise in these areas. However, you would not get such a good student experience.

Back to OP, I think that you have received some negative advice.
You said that you thought that DD was struggling: have school called in either you or DD to discuss the matter? Is it really that bad?
If she is struggling then you can do two things: give in or fight on. A lot of posters seem to be advocating the 'give in' route. Sixthform is a bridge between lower school (where there is a lot of hand-holding) and University (where they have to fend for themselves). This is, ideally, the time when they learn how to fend for themselves; how to ask for help; to find strategies that work.
I disagree with the 'give in' brigade. We're only halfway through the first year, try to help her to 'fight on' for a bit longer. Sometimes it suddenly 'clicks'. She said that she is willing to work so I would try teachers, a study-buddy, a tutor or a Easter revision course. Good luck and remember that hard work trumps brains.

....<a class="break-all" href="//.university.which.co.uk/search/course" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.university.which.co.uk/search/course

Bruffin I'm obviously typing slowly today

bigbluebus League tables are a starting point, here will allow you to look at rankings at subject level.

Another way is the site where you enter predicted grades and subject together with other preferences. All the suggested courses come up, so you can then look at the course content for the Unis your DD may be interested in.

Will try and find a link....

this guide you can sort by subject

worrysigh How do I find out which non-RG Universities (and not ex-polys) are good for science? DS wants to do a Physics/Engineering based degree. His ambition is to go to a RG but despite getting all As at GCSE, he is finding the transition to AS level difficult and his mock AS level results were not good. He is doing 3 sciences & maths atm but thinks he will drop Biology after AS.

I would drop classics and free up some time to get to grips with maths and chemistry.She really needs to grasp the nettle andget her head round the things she doesn't understand There is lots of excellent resource on the internet- for example 'khan academy' , and get hold of some proper text books which explain it all step by step rather than relying on the classes and teachers notes.

I concur with the general advice on this thread, that Maths would seem to be the subject to drop if she would be able to achieve v high grades in her other subjects...

However, if she is struggling to achieve the grades in the subjects (especially Chemistry) that seem most relevant to her expressed career interests, I wonder if it might be worth going back a step and looking again at all her career & degree course options? If this is just a hurdle in Chemistry that she needs to overcome & henceforth all will be well, that's one thing. But if she is setting out on a course & career path in academia where she might struggle the whole way to shine, she is not going to be very happy.

As a careers adviser, I'm sure that she could benefit from talking it through - not least to give her the confidence to persevere with A levels if she starts to lose confidence in herself, knowing that there are alternative options...
Hopefully your DDs school has engaged a qualified & impartial Careers Adviser that she can arrange to see. If not, it is possible to see an adviser privately. Search the professional register of www.thecdi.net for an experienced & qualified adviser in your area.

As a start, she might like to explore the options with her A level subjects on: www.bestcourse4me.com

IME, gcse chemistry is too broad and does not rigorously cover the fundamental principles of chemistry sufficiently. Students therefore move up to A'level with the bottom rungs of the ladder they are climbing not securely in place. Once this is sorted, most can then make quite rapid progress at A'level.

One point to bear in mind, however, is that degree level education will be insufficient for most scientific careers and even outside academia a PhD is essential for most areas of science. Where she does her PhD (and more importantly, who supervises it) is of much greater importance and will define her career path much more than where she studies as an undergraduate (within reason).

I agree that dropping maths will not be an issue for university admissions. As has been said, universities make sure to cover the essential maths for the course in their own modules- especially the statistics side of things as this is not a compulsory module at A-level.

As has been said, having poor results across the board because she was struggling with maths will make it harder to get a university place. Universities will sometimes offer slightly lower grades to those with more science subjects, but this will only be, say AAB instead of AAA and not all universities do this.

However, she also needs to be aware that dropping an AS could limit her university options, as some universities will ask for a 4th AS in their offers.

I think it comes down to how badly she is struggling in maths and chemistry. I think it is worth talking to her teachers about what they think she will get at AS in these subjects. If for both they think she will get a C/D or lower, then it will be very hard work to get both up to an A/B. If she is on track to fail these subjects, she really needs to think about dropping one. If she is on track for an A/B in classics, she is much better carrying on with this. If she is looking at getting less than BBC overall for her AS levels, she will struggle with getting a place at university.

Maths A-level is hard for people who don't "get" it, and there will be another step up next year.

If she is really struggling with chemistry, is she sure that a biochemistry degree is for her?

I do think a tutor might help if you think she has gaps in her knowledge.

Maths isnt rote learning but it is a lot of practise. This time last year ds teacher said he was going to fail. He got himself into a right mess but wouldnt ask for help. We ended up with a meeting and teacher devising a plan. We also got him a tutor. She was good because ds would go through old papers, find what he was struggling with and go and talk it through with her. He didnt see her every week just in half terms.The maths department does have an open door policy for their alevel students. The student can walk into any class their teacher is in and ask for help.
Ds does have a talent for maths and asks really deep questions that stretch his teachers, but a level is still a lot harder work than he thinks it is. Ds is also dyslexic and makes silly mistakes. He did half a paper with the calculator on wrong setting. He now takes two calculators in to exams, labled. He also will carty the wrong figure forward.
As for A gcse. The school produces a very detailed analysis if their mock exam. We just got one for dd. Its interesting as both dd and ds had gaps in the "easy" questions but got marks on subjects they hadnt covered yet which were basically the A questions. The teacher does feel its because they rush the easy stuff

My DD is in year 13 and has similar career ambitions. She also struggled with the transition to A level (similar subjects).

You and more importantly, she, need to get to grips with what form this struggling is taking. Chemistry & Maths are very much building subjects so is there something she didnt 'get' at GCSE level? This can sometimes be the source of a lot of problems.

One of the things my DD struggled with was the 'vocabulary' of A level chemistry. This cost her a lot of marks at AS.

Dont forget that there are some excellent universities one level down from RG. Many of these are 'new' universities with some excellent science schools and the latest equipment. A good degree from one of these universities could easily lead to a masters/PhD from a RG university.

My DD struggled when she tried to do A-level maths and she got 12 A's at GCSE. It took her a long time to decide to drop it but she was much, much happier afterwards, and got all A's in the ones she kept going with.

milliemac11 You said first report, so does that mean you are due a second one soon? Has there been a parents evening, and are the teachers concerned she is not hitting targets? Or are the targets lower than you would like, being set using GCSE grades?

Also going through yr12 with DD1, this 6th form study seems to be a totally different ball game. Much more about independent learning, work ethic, and maturity. It seems as though the GCSE grades are almost irrelevant. DD is also struggling with 2 subjects, one of which (Physics) she had A* GCSE. Maths was the lowest of her GCSE marks (mid A) and she is finding it OK, well as far as aiming for a B goes anyway, which may not be OK by MN standards.

With maths, I think it's also about why they didn't get an A at GCSE. It's possible to get an A without knowing any of he harder A material. In DDs case, she is better at the difficult stuff, more analytical than numerate, often losing marks on easier questions with silly arithmetic slip ups.

Could you get your DD onto some past papers and see if there's a pattern in the kind of questions she is getting wrong?
Also agree it may be worth trying a tutor, even if just to assess whether its worth continuing but dropping after AS.

Senua Agree, the rote learning is more at GCSE. As the maths becomes more advanced, it is much more about working it out. Although I think some of the methods don't stick without lots of practise.

Awful can you explain why you keep mentioning "rote learning" when talking about Maths? It's a long time since I studied Maths but one of its bonuses (for me) was that you didn't have to learn anything - if you couldn't remember it then you just went back and worked it out from first principles. What do they have to 'learn' these days?