Fed up with the education divide ?

But Mini your son has an advantage in that he is at a better primary,has access to level 6 work in primary when other perfectly able kids in lesser schools won't.

When he rocks up to secondary he has an advantage over all the kids from lesser schools as he will automatically go into higher sets and be stretched accordingly.Others just as bright but less privileged will be constantly paddling to catch up.But that is ok.

1 in 20. Not sure I go by those figures given how few areas even have grammar schools and in those that do many don't bother.

Get rid of grammar schools and private. Everyone goes to local comprehensive schools. Get rid of league tables. Smaller class sizes.

That should sort the divide.

In some areas state schools are expressly forbidden to prepare for grammar school admission.

1 in 20? Are you sure?

You need Level 6 maths for grammar school entry ? By October of Year 6?! The schools in our area don't enter any children for Level 6!
I asked a local primary about grammar school entry the other day. They said that they do nothing to prepare children (not surprised) and that it was unfair to prepare children as then children who had not been prepared would be disadvantaged.

"Sorry but I honestly don't think non bright kids could pass the 11+. Have you seen the maths?I think bright kids lose places to other bright kids.More often than not those from better primaries state and private."

You are right.

These are the facts:

Grammars take in a disproportionate number of children from private prep schools. Some grammar schools take over 40% of their intake from private prep schools.

Nationally over 72% of children with grammar school places have been tutored outside the home.

As for children in the better primaries getting fantastic preparation for the 11, well my children's school is a highly rated inner city primary. My son, who is in year 5, is in the extension group for maths. He will sit a level 6 paper in the summer of year 6, and will be covering the level six content in year 6, but most of this will be done in the Easter and summer terms after entrance exams. The only way he will do the level six maths in time for grammar school exams is if we do it at home/send him to a tutor.

"What is the point of yet another anti grammar thread when there are far bigger issues at stake which have an impact on an awful lot more children."

I disagree. 1 in 20 children go to grammar school in the UK. These very bright children, and their super-involved and motivated parents are lost to the comprehensive system.

Everyone knows that the very best commercial institutions value their brightest and most hard-working staff because they know what an important contribution they make to the overall success of the organisation. A school is also shaped by the children (and the parents of those children) in it, and if some schools are deprived of the most talented and brightest children, then this will impact on the character and the atmosphere of the school, and on the aspirations of the majority of the children in them.

Actually neither are teacher reports as teachers and their expectations can vary hugely.

Tolstoy Sats aren't fair.

Nope I was replying to an over dramatic post further down and actually said "moving on" before providing non grammar related suggestions.

Retropear- forgive me- but it's you, I think, who made this a thread about grammar schools!

The selective schools are to blame for the divide by selecting extensively tutored students instead of selecting children based on CATS tests,SATS tests or teachers reports.

Sorry but I honestly don't think non bright kids could pass the 11+. Have you seen the maths?I think bright kids lose places to other bright kids.More often than not those from better primaries state and private.

Grammar schools only serve a tiny fraction of the population.What is the point of yet another anti grammar thread when there are far bigger issues at stake which have an impact on an awful lot more children.

Wouldn't it be great to see the very bright and interested kids at grammar schools (of course in many areas there are none), not kids who may be neither but have been taught to the test?
Many families wouldn't even think of putting their child in for grammar school entry. And if they did they might not be able to tutor themselves or to pay for a tutor (or a private primary, obviously), and if their child got in might not be able to afford the bus fare, as it is unlikely to be their local school.
We certainly don't live in a meritocracy. From birth onwards many of the opportunities in life can be bought. And we don't end up with the pool of talent that we need for the important jobs.

The lack of a level playing field is down to differing primary standards.

It us well known that parents buying their way into the best Primaries and then the best Secondaries is a far bigger problem.Only a fraction of kids go to grammars.

Mini your experience of tutoring bares absolutely no relation to the tutoring kids round here get.

Groups or 6, all doing the same,with a variety of tutors not necessarily teachers,no assessment.They get a shed load of work to do at home all of which they could buy in Smiths and is down to them at the end of the day.

My kids haven't been tutored previously,their friends have.We've recently just started dipping our toe in.

Sorry but a child in an Outstanding primary being taught level 6 maths and pushed in writing will have a massssseeeeve advantage.20 minutes a week going through a maths Bond book,along with 20 mins of writing and 20 VB is not going to get any kid into most grammars.Being bright,having access to a good/Outstanding primary education and a go at a VR book most could do like a puzzle book will.

"Oh yawn an anti grammar thread- again.Not all grammars are ss and sorry any bright child wanting to go can tutor themselves. Imvho kids from Outstanding primaries have far more of an 11+ advantage than kids who do a measly snatched hour of tutoring in whatever form a week."

Do children who go to outstanding primaries where they learn in classes of 30, have the same chance of a grammar school place as an equally bright child at a good private prep school who has been taught in classes of 15 since nursery? I don't think so, hence the disproportionate numbers of children from private preps in grammars.

As for 'a measly hour a week' tuition, how much one to one time with a qualified teacher does your average state primary pupil get over the course of an course of a week?

All the children I know who are having 11+ tutoring with a properly qualified and experienced teacher don't just have a once a week session and nothing else. First off they have a detailed assessment which will flag up areas of weakness (pertinent to the 11+) in maths and English, and secondly they are sent home from their lessons with several hours of targeted and appropriate homework to complete outside of the tuition session.

There isn't a level playing field in relation to grammar school entry and everyone knows it.

This thread isn't about grammar schools, surely- but as an aside- could jth people who want more of them explain what they are going to do with the majority who don't get in?

And I really can't let "any bright kid ho wants to get in an tutor themselves" pass without a .

@retropear- I agree some children do benefit the Gschool system and I am not anti GS but the OP was talking re closing a divide bringing state schools inline with Indies. Re-introducing GS is one small step but like you said primaries must first be improved.
Hi SBD- it's bonkers, one minute the school was insisting on cursive writing in Y2 and then in Y5 children were told they had to revert to print. Bus stop - what's that??
It's quite unbelievable the education system is such a mess !

@FW&WF off topic but talking of DC and lives dreamed of - hv either of you read stumbled across accidentally today's story in the DM about the lady wanting dd privately educated and Oxford with the sole aim of wealthy husband and becoming a SAHM. So once state schools are sorted indies can become finishing schools

Oh yawn an anti grammar thread- again.Not all grammars are ss and sorry any bright child wanting to go can tutor themselves. Imvho kids from Outstanding primaries have far more of an 11+ advantage than kids who do a measly snatched hour of tutoring in whatever form a week.

Moving on.

I loath comps and think they do little for many children.

I think choice is the key and much better primary education.

Seeing as GCSEs (going by another thread )are often based on KS 2 Sats which are often pre determined by KS1 Sats taken when a lot of children aren't fully mature many kids are pretty much royally stuffed before they even step in to any secondary school.

All primaries should be Outstanding so the parents who have bought their Outstanding places with property or religion don't manage to elbow their kids ahead at 4.

There should be far more parental information.

There should be a variety of secondary schools.

All primaries should give pupils who wish access to 11+ materials.

In an ideal world private education should simply be curtailed.

[Sorry another aside to Wordfactory, put like that it, it's really endearing so I take back hint of snark. My children have the life I dreamed of for myself, for very different reasons (my childhood v Tory, shires) and I am constantly reminding them how lucky they are. They'll probably reject it all though.]

Hi stressed:

Oh the letters are real all right - they're there Tuesday after Tuesday in the Guardian whilst parents like me are hoping to find informed reporting on all the changes in the primary curriculum/ academies/ etc...

But he rants (as I fear I have above.....) so easy when given a platform I expect....and so some good, even great points, get lost in some wild socialist chest thumping and I fear I have never read a letter to the end.

I think the problem is for those of us trapped in the middle - I don't totally disagree with Gove - there just seems to be warring camps.

Sure there's the issue that who would object to higher standards - but I like learning times tables to x12. I like that children are taught what a noun is. I LOVE THAT COLUMN METHOD for addition/subtraction/multiplication/ division (bus-stop for division) IS ALLOWED IN PRIMARY ONCE AGAIN!

There's some good in what Gove's moving toward and raising standards.

But - it's chaotic, floated in the papers first, as someone above said consultation seems odd and somewhere in there parents are just trampled over.

So for me - in all of this - what I'd like to see is a system that is clear to parents. Marks/ Grades/ NC Levels - whatever you decide upon in the end - that make sense locally/ regionally/ nationally & have integrity - are the same wherever you go.

A system that has benchmarks. Your child should be reading to this level by age 7 - if not X measures will be put in place to catch them up.

And a system that can spot talent & support it. I accept it won't be my girls - but I'd like to believe that if there is a great mathematician, writer, scientist, etc... - they could thrive due to the system rather than in spite of it.

But above all else - at some point - it would be nice for all concerned - parents/ children and I suspect teachers - for a few years of stability. This endless rolling out of new initiatives is wearing everybody out I fear.

Oh I'm sure you're right farewell... (I like 'em too)...

It probably reads as if I'm bonkers. But my speech patterns are quite eratic, so in keeping perhaps.

I was thinking about what you said though (as I took the washing upstairs, oh rock and roll) and I'm sure I do highlight how lucky we are here in Casa Wordfactory.

I've been tackled about it before on MN.

But the thing is, my fortunes in life have turned around absurdly and I'm able to give my DC such a wonderful life. It really is a never ending source of pleasure for me. And I absolutely will not ever take it for granted. Or let them take it for granted .

It would feel very low rent to try to down play it. Ungrateful!

Hmm Word, thanks for answering. I'm not sure it perhaps reads as you intend, well at least to me, but I do like literary tics so I fully support your right to use them…

I have a bad habit of overusing ellipses…

As you can see...

@pastsellbydate
Perplexed - You can't possibly think Mr Rosen's letter is to be taken at face value ????

As for my life and that of my DC, what am I meant to do? Make up problems?

The whole point of MN and its delicious addictiveness is that we each get a snap shot into the lives of others. Utterly fascinating, I think.

Sadly for the purposes of dramatic tension, my DC's lives are most unsatisfactory .