Fed up with the education divide ?

vanilla - bcos it seems some parents are perfectly happy and Id hate to suggest otherwise [hmmm]

Give us state schools that are sanctuaries for inspiration

Why do you need a poll? Take the failing schools.

and teachers should be polled to identify inherent problems at that particular school.

Riverside Mum - totally agree the children in abysmal home situations need someone within the school to help them achieve their full potential but currently teachers seem to be held unfairly responsible for the social welfare and success of these children. These are the children where the divide is vast.
Unfortunately politics dictates social policy .
Maybe poll the parents and set up an online forum to truly establish the % that are happy with their local schools and choices available.
Identify the schools which people want to avoid and establish what the issues are and take action.
We can all wax lyrical about what should be done but unless you are truly one of those parents in an area who feel they have no options and are accepting a below parr school then its a fruitless debate.

tryingreallytrying

I don't think we could or should ban private schools
but they give an obvious advantage
I agree with your charitable status comment, it is obvious to all except those with a vested interest

My kids go to a state comp and I want the best for my kids

It is up to the state schools to raise their bar
that is down to parents, kids AND the teachers

I wish the the comp my kids go to was more inspirational
I wish they had higher standards and higher expectations

Unfortunately I wish/want doesn't get

I think the private schools are something of a distraction in the equality debate. Whatever people on Mumsnet say, there are no "average" families using private education. People may feel "normal" in their social circle, but average they are not. I think that if people want to spend their spare money on private education, they should be able to. There will always be families who are so rich it barely makes a dent on their outgoings. There will be other families who have a tradition of boarding/indy school that they would like to continue because they are, in essence, scared of/look down on the state sector. There will always be the "nouveau riche" who feel that private education will buy position/contacts/whatever. There will be other people who think that money will buy a better education - that somehow it will get you to the front of an academic queue like private medicine does.

What we really need to address as a priority group are the families who choose private education because they feel they have no other option.

Of course, the way to do this is to make sure all schools are of a reasonable standard. But we need to step back and look at the chaos that had been caused by Ofsted reports and league tables and see if there is a better way. We need to ensure that housing policy does not create the large geographical pockets of deprivation - this is a very long term issue that governments do not give a stuff about - that affect some primary schools (and I guess secondaries in cities) very badly. I think what we need to do as a priority is get rid of selection by religion - to return to true local catchment areas where all families have an interest in their nearby schools.

I'm not sure whether the OP has much to contribute. Representing a group of former grammar schools that went private and now select by income and intellect as you do OP, I'm not sure what you really understand about the "divide". What do you understand about a child whose mother is in and out of prison? What do you understand about a child whose father spends money on drugs so that there is no money left for the electricity card? What do you understand about a child in care who had been so neglected that he still eats handfuls of grass and drinks from puddles? What do you understand about a child who has trouble sleeping because he has been woken up in the night so often by the police arresting his father? What do you understand about the child who only eats fast food and bowls of cereal because there are no cooking facilities at home? What do you understand about the child who can't get homework done because he has to share a bedroom with 3 other children? What do you understand about a child who lives in such a damp flat that he is regularly ambulanced to A&E because his asthma can't be controlled? This is the divide that we have to deal with in state education.

Why do you say it doesn't work in the majority of cases? Evidence, please?

Oh, and while you're about it, you said earlier-"The standard of teaching / schools and opportunities that exist at Grammar should be available to Comps."

Can I see the evidence that shows it isn't?

So it works in many (numerically) but not in the majority (proportionately)?

I agree that the comprehensive model does work in many instances. However,I think the reason why it works cannot be replicated and scaled up to all the schools in the country. That's why in majority of cases it doesn't.

So to bolster parents' confidence in comprehensive system one need to do something about the culture and the underachieving disruptive pupils.

OK- I retract "great unwashed"

"Even if state and private schools were indistinguishable in terms of academic and other achievement, plenty of parents would still choose private because of the intangible, je ne sais quoi that such institutions impart"

Better?

In answer to your quasi-rhetorical question, I think several of us on this thread have said that we don't want to send our kid to fee-paying schools because they are being perfectly well-educated at the local comp. And you cannot on the one hand ask that question and then concede that some of us do 'care about education' (a number of us are also quite well-educated, which is a separate issue but does reinforce the point that we might know the sort of outcomes we are looking for: if I rate my kids' English teachers, believe me they have to be pretty good).

Martorana no, what you said was Plenty of parents would still want to go private to keep their child away from the children of the "great unwashed"

It's the kind of emotive generalisation that I know you dislike other posters using without evidence to back up such a claim. So I was just asking where your evidence was coming from. Could you provide a link perhaps?

Martorana - I don't think parents who send their kids to the local comp care any less. In fact they may well care more about their DC education. There are also the wealthy parents that offload difficult and underperforming children to boarding school. One of the poor girls from Dds Kindy was sent boarding halfway across the world aged 5 which is tantamount to child abuse IMO. So no I don't think parents sending kids to a comp care less!

"But here there is a denial that tat there is a problem with comprehensives. Teaching in comprehensive is the best there is. Nothing special needs to be done about culture and underachieving pupils."

I don't think there is denial. But I do think that the anti-comprehensive culture on Mumsnet is so pervasive that those of us who, from experience and research, know that it is a model that can, and indeed, does, work are wary of saying anything negative lest it becomes a stick to beat us with.

sorry Vanilla don't follow - just abt to finish work so maybe brain fog.
Martorana - I agree, I know a few that feel they and their DC are above ordinary mortals but we are taking a tiny fraction . Many choose private education and really stretch themselves to provide perceived opportunities various schools offer.
Money will always provide more opportunity in every aspect of life. Is that wrong?

You can't have solutions if you don't know what problem you are solving.

All solutions were about abolishing private and selective schools, while what is needed is to fix the comprehensives.

But here there is a denial that tat there is a problem with comprehensives. Teaching in comprehensive is the best there is. Nothing special needs to be done about culture and underachieving pupils.

So nothing needs to be done, apparently.

What do you mean, evidence?

All I'm saying is that those who send their children private for reasons unrelated to academic or other achievement would still do so even if there was no noticeable difference in such achievement between state and private schools.

Plenty of parents would still want to go private to keep their child away from the children of the "great unwashed"

Evidence please Martorana?

Vanilla - posted solutions a while back in the thread

"But then why would a parent who could afford a private school not put his DC into the local comp instead of the Grammar?"

Well, some parents would. Why is this an issue?

Plenty of parents would still want to go private to keep their child away from the children of the "great unwashed"

The idea that private schools should be abolished is unrealistic
And then there are very academic kids who don't want to be held back and should be entitled fulfill their potential. Exactly, totally agree.

So what is one problem that could be fixed to improve education?
Before discussing the solution, one need to identify the problem...

Cant see the MN threads asking how to get your child into the local Comp?

But then why would a parent who could afford a private school not put his DC into the local comp instead of the Grammar?

"The standard of teaching / schools and opportunities that exist at Grammar should be available to Comps."

Can I see the evidence that shows it isn't?