Fed up with the education divide ?

Vanillachocolate
I wanted to say thank you for your posts and for posting so much on this thread. It is fresh air to read your posts and I can sign under every one of them. It is such a relief to see there are people who can actually see things.

Your analysis of the situation is excellent. And the hypocrisy (or just hiding from how things are), and 'the better dead than red' non-desire to recognise and state the problems of this country, and the imperialism with which the myth of the 'Chinese rote learning' is repeated.. Even head of Maths at my DS school told me when I mentioned that I do maths with DS that 'maths is not only about calculation'. Yes, thank you very much your English honour, the rest of the world at your feet of course knows nothing about maths and if we ever attempt to do any maths we can only do rote learning...

I've also had arguments with happygardening before on mumsnet - where low ability gets equated with undifferentiated SEN and used as an excuse. I've also witnessed this with DS school - if the child doesn't achieve (because of no systematic teaching) - he is deemed low ability. Mother teaches him - tadam - in 4 months - high ability boy! Anyone in Finland, Poland would be scandalised by the use of the term ability on 6 yo! This sounds like eugenics! But here it is an accepted term - in the teaching profession!!!

How anyone can actually learn maths with these teaching methods is beyond me (judging on my DS primary school). I just teach him myself on my homecountry's textbook, and maths in his school looks like a joke - complete lack of systematicity, slow complexification, practice. Just scatter a few unrelated examples together... Anyway, I can talk about this for hours.

But one thing I wanted to ask. I suspect a real lack of Promethean Enlightment attitude in this country. Top independent schools want to produce laywers and bankers, not, for instance, scientists. I only so far have experience of the state education and so held my hopes that somewhere some actual education should be happening. This I thought was private. But maybe even there I wouldn't find what I am looking for, what do you think?
(Shall I actually move away?)

johnbunyan "... Community values of respect, listening and desire to listen and learn with people is the way forward, and is cheap...." yep. but clearly you have been watching too many Dixon of dock green episodes. have you been out into communities. have you seen how this has gone almost completely in a lot of areas. it might be cheap in your eyes but societal change is never cheap! and this is what you are asking for. a complete and utter reversal of society back to the days when policemen were respected and people helped their neighbours out, mowed their front lawns and picked rubbish to make their area look nice. We the people in their 50's and 60's+ have just sat back and let this happen. the rot has set in. you are right. not even money would get us out of this mess. its to do with peoples attitudes to rights with none of the responsibilities. how the heck you change that god only knows. not just through education though.

I would let rich parents who want to pay, pay. They always will. Improve state education so that it is comparable with the private sector. Reduce class sizes, improve standards of teaching, and pay and insist on more rigorous academic standards. There are many "Not well off" parents paying school fees to give their DC the chance of a better education. We are among them. We earn less then average salary (both work in music so not well paid) and have made the decision to pay for our DSs to go to an excellent private school. The option is not great. If it was we would be able to go on holiday. I know of others at our Prep school who are doing the same. One mum works in Sainsbury's on the till to keep her son in the school. Is it worth it? Well, yes considering our option. Is it fair? not really. However, the difference in the education is marked. That is all we are interested in, not social climbing, sport or extra curricular activities but the quality of the learning.

Well, I say PottyLotty for PM. Or Education Secretary

PottyLottie, thank you. Good to see a contribution from a professional.

I was a teacher for 17 years (state sector) before I had my children. I have worked in inner cities; a small village school and was a head of Key Stage in a very large primary school. I was also a Special Needs Co-Ordinator for 5 years and was seconded as an Early Years advisory teacher for a while.....so whilst I'm not saying I know it all (no-one ever does), I've been around a bit I guess! For what it's worth, based on what I've seen, here goes, not in any particular order: our education system needs........

smaller classes for better individual attention and therefore, obviously, more teachers

more specialist teachers

high expectations of discipline and the notion that "respect has to be earned" turned on its head in schools. Respect for authority should be a pupil's DEFAULT position. Respect for their pupils should be a teacher's DEFAULT position. If either party behaves inappropriately, they can expect others to lose respect for them.

better provision for children with special needs. Inclusion shouldn't just mean a place at a mainstream school, it should mean plenty of additional help so that the child can access everything on offer and teachers aren't struggling to cope.

stop constant testing and churning out statistics and allow teachers to teach. Huge piles of filled-in forms and neat paperwork does not mean a teacher's necessarily any good, but it does mean that they're probably knackered and demoralised.

Much as I hate to say it, a lot of this boils down to money and therefore state sector funding BUT, good discipline costs nothing and if nobody's listening, it doesn't matter how good a teacher you are. (Spend money to do some of the above and discipline problems would decrease, granted)

Sorry for the rant, I'm just putting the "kick me" sign on my back as I press "enter".............

I asked you nearly a week ago:

"'the more traditionally academic child who feels held back in many instances '"

These children are the victims of social apartheid. The sort of apartheid which sees those from wealthy and motivated family hived off into separate institutions - grammar, private and church. Leaving the brightest children from families less able to manipulate the system under-represented in comprehensives secondary moderns.

Schools which are disproportionately full of difficult children and the less able. This makes them difficult places to teach and to learn in. It's exactly the same in wider society. Create ghettoes and watch people sink to the bottom in them.

Yep- because flippant is exactly what we need.....

OP last flippant post, can't be bothered to read through or and add anything meaningful . Regurgitates words. His attitude displays everything that is wrong with out of touch educationalists.
I'm out - happy debating people. To add my own flippant rhetoric "God help those poor kids consigned to a life stacking shelves - if they are lucky to find those jobs or perhaps the government could introduce a lottery for 1 way tickets to China for unaccomplished 16 year olds

(And you pinched the wall analogy from John Coles...)

Well, as nice as it is to have the OP return and explain where and why some posts are wrong or 'far too simplistic'.

And yes, enough with the 'leafy' crap... The only 'constructive solution' to breaking down the 'Berlin wall' here would be to not construct a Berlin Wall based on ability to pay.

That is the wall. It is the obvious, manifest, constructed, deliberate, desired, wall. Break that wall, and then let's talk about whether there are some comprehensives that are still better than others, and whether that's something that could be addressed via catchment tweaks. But ex-private school heads can't talk about 'gated communities' as an abstract metaphor without being aware of some level of hypocrisy irony, surely?

I asked you nearly a week ago:

'the more traditionally academic child who feels held back in many instances '

Please demonstrate examples - proper, across the population examples not anecdotal - of these 'traditionally academic children'. Because you're not just saying 'state schools are holding bright kids back', you're saying how those kids feel. Just interested in how you know?

And then:

I'm also interested in those politicians who'd attended secondary moderns: who were they? And why did they precede the people who'd done well in, and want to perpetuate, grammar schools? So people who'd failed the 11 plus went on to become politicians, in large enough numbers to influence educational policy; while people who'd passed went and did something else?

I note that you've not answered either of those points.

Oh ffs, John, enough with the leafy. And why don't you answer my points upthread instead of just saying 'oh what an interesting debate'? How about a bit of rigorous analysis and evidence to support your arguments?

Martorana,

Aprentiships are the process of entering jobs for unskilled youngster. I am sure you know that they are part of the government plan to solve youth unemployment.

Do you think they are too academic and elitist too?

What jobs do you think are available to 16 years olds without GCSEs? Could you list them?

"Talking about low skilled jobs, I v’ been scanning for work experience for DS and came across many adverts for apprentiships."

Since when have apprenticeships been "low skilled jobs"?

The UK and USA approach to liberal, individual learning, critical thinking...
The US education for the less privileged is a disaster. We are heading their way.

Debate
Yes, debate is great for politicians, lawyers etc. But can ignorant people really have independent opinions and contribute to serious debate? Or are their opinions shaped by the cues from the media?

Let’s come back to Maths. There isn’t any debate in Maths. To be good at maths you need to practice solving problems of increasing difficulty; lots of them, from primary school. The PISA study shown UK is behind 12 countries, including many European ones with similar culture and family structure. This is not about the Asian society and culture, it is about the culture in education and the methods of teaching and assessment.

Concerning applying maths in context, apparently UK grammar school kids cannot either. In this article they explain that GCSE is done by rote learning and discourages thinking.
"The results show that any question requiring more than a memory prompt is considered hard by students and teachers."
What constitutes a ‘hard’ question in GCSE Mathematics: A bit of thought is required

Does nobody here understand the concept of progress? It's not about the 'top' and the 'bottom', that's how it used to be in the 1950s. In 2014 it should be about aptitude, potential, learning style, skill, gift, pleasure in learning
Yes, of course, absolutely. It is intended. The most able students and those in private schools enjoy all of this. But none of this is happening for failing students in failing schools. Do those who leave school at 16 without any qualifications have a sense of their talent, skill, potential? Did they enjoy learning?
I mean, it is supposed to, but doesn’t come together. Why?

I think ‘The UK and USA approach to liberal, individual learning, critical thinking’ works well for the bright students and the elites, but it does not work for the disadvantaged and the least able.

I don’t know why. Maybe because to get anywhere in education you need focus, quiet structured environment, confidence, perseverance, hard work, good work habits, motivation. You also need to develop a learning skill, a systematic approach which is developed in early years and in primary schools. The social divide in UK takes away much of this form disadvantaged kids.

You can have an innate ability for that, or you might learn that in primary school by looking at model answers and doing homework. By looking at model answers Chinese students might learn a lot about the method of developing a good answer. After all Asian have been winners of international maths Olympiads for many years. I don’t suppose the Olympiad questions were the same that they already memorised?

The structured model, of which Asia is just one example, provides these factors, as probably does the education in Netherlands, Poland, Germany.

We can't turn back to the 1950, but we need to go forward towards a place where the disadvantaged kids can succeed.

Entry level jobs and courses for young people without 5GCSEs are in very short supply unfortunately.

We no longer have the pits, the dock yards, the factories, the agriculture. Everyone can't become a plumber!

Passing exams has got nothing to do with whether you can work and hold down a job…

Well, passing exams shows you can complete the task to a good standard, manage yourself, have discipline, follow instructions.

The access to the best paid and most influential jobs in Finance, Law, Media and Plolitics have already been mentioned by a few posters. Talking about low skilled jobs, I v’ been scanning for work experience for DS and came across many adverts for apprentiships. All of them wanted 5 good GCSEs. They get 100ds applications per place…

Indulgence in the idea that British education is the only one that produces competent and creative people is based on cold war propaganda and and the racism pervasive at the time it was established. Now it is the barrier to any reform. It is reassuring to declare that China is a ‘sausage factory’ where people don’t have opinions about anything. You don’t need to deal with the question what are you better at…

The Brits were dismissing the Americans, the Japanese, the Koreans, but look, which British company is global leader in manufacturing? Which companies grew on the crest of consumer electronics revolution? The Brits invented the internet (although the Americans would laugh at that), but which companies used it to create new industries? Which UK Company is the recognisable name in software, in telecommunications? In Space?

Apparently, when Obama asked Apple to bring Ipad design back in US from China, Steve Job told him “No”, because there were more engineering talent available in China…

They say that Brits are best at high end design and services. Yes, but how many low skilled jobs are there in these services you can really export?

What do we have to show for this great progressive education? We have politicians and journalists , the world best paid bankers and lawyers. They are the people who enjoy real social mobility.

The UK education system is designed to prepare and select for those careers and to discount everything else. This bias is built in the teaching and assessment methods of the curriculum from primary school.

So that's why they got called "Public Schools Then" That did not really happen though did it Grovel....

The oldest public schools were actually founded to educate the poor for free (Eton, Winchester etc).

Life Chances have been decided by the time you go to senior school.

Its funny these threads , come up every 3-4 weeks and the same people (I am Gulity more than most) saying the same things everytime.

It is important to note though that there is a huge difference between a private school and " A private School" .The first type of private school became private due to the abolition of Grammar schools, or because the state system were not able to offer a specialist education

The second type of private school "THE PUBLIC SCHOOL" was created with the sole interest of educating the Upper Class and the Wealthy Merchants kids to who the Upper Class depended on to keep the status Quo. This status Quo is even more obvious today, it has just moved slightly towards "Internationalism" as the world has become smaller and less relevant on national interest.

The problem is evident in the fact that the top jobs are not even going to the "Private School kids", but to the Public School kids, even music and sport are becoming more and more dominated by Public school kids. The Private School kids are now taking the roles of the Old Grammar School Kids (I.E Middle and Upper Middle management jobs subservient to the public school kids) . The best pupils of the remaining Grammar Schools/Top Comprehensives are clinging on by their nails to remain in the Private school group.

The rest of the population have very little chance of actually getting the top jobs or in to senior or high paying careers. There are of course "Exceptions" and everybody knows exceptions , but for the vast majority your "Life Chances" has been decided by the time you go to senior school.