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Original poster

A Level Choices and "facilitating subjects"

61 replies

Phaedra11 · 08/02/2014 10:00

My son is in Year 11 at a local state school which doesn't have a sixth college. He hopes to continue with A levels at the nearby sixth college which has a very good reputation. The A levels he wishes to do are: English Lit, Law, Sociology and IT. I am aware that A level Law is widely thought of as irreverent, even if you go on to study Law at university but he really wants to do it, partly because he thinks it would show him whether he does want to pursue it further and also he's really attracted to the mock trials that the college participates in. He wants to study the other subjects because he enjoys them.

I've always thought that studying the subjects you have a passion for was the best bet, but was concerned to read on another thread that to stand a chance of getting into a decent university, you need to have A levels in two facilitating/traditional subjects. I assume English Lit would qualify but not the others. He definitely does not want to study Maths or Sciences, though he already has A grades in GCSE Maths and Biology and is predicted As for Chemistry, Physics and Further Maths. History is a possibility but I know he would rather study the other subjects and I have been told by a friend with insider knowledge that the teaching of History at the college has been comparatively weak recently with a fast turnover of history staff.

I don't know whether to say anything to DS about this or not. He is already feeling the pressure of imminent GCSEs. We did discuss initially whether History might be a better option if he does go further with Law but in the end he decided against it. I think it is possible/quite likely that he would achieve better grades in the subjects he prefers. He has no particular ambitions for Oxbridge but does hope to go to university. The school has given guidance on applying for college but not on A level choices. The Sixth Form college has said that they are flexible about A level choices at this point and it is quite possible to change options in the initial induction period.

Any advice?

OP posts:
TalkinPeace · 10/02/2014 13:47

DCs school - along with almost all those in this county is 11-16
THe colleges are very geared up to dealing with it and ensuring that the open evenings give decent info, that the taster days will be a good shakeout etc etc
links between the schools and the colleges are very good
go talk to the college directly

Onlyconnect · 10/02/2014 13:22

I teach A level law and every year some of my students go on to study law at uni, including to Russell Group universities.Some of the attitudes to A level law quoted here are out of date. AQA did a survey a couple years ago asking unis about their attitude to A level law and with the exception of LSE and Manchester they are all happy with it- including Oxford and Cambridge colleges. LSE and Manchester would accept it along with 2 facilitating subjects. Having said this, to be on the safe side I would pick only one non- facilitating subject.

ChocolateWombat · 10/02/2014 13:20

Phaedra, I would print off the Informed Choices document for him to read himself. He will understand it, it is aimed at 5th formers. Perhaps he would like to read this thread too.

At the end of the day it is his (influenced by you) choice. As long as he knows which doors are being kept open and which closed, his choices are fine.

Original poster
Phaedra11 · 10/02/2014 13:14

Thank you. Yes it is an 11-16 school and a city state school with a "mixed" catchment area (high percentage of kids with free dinners). I've been happy with the teaching there and the pastoral care has been great. However careers advice has been limited and parents are not involved. University is never going to be an option for many of the kids and I think the school assumes that those for whom it is, will be looked after by the sixth form college. I will take this up with the school and as DS2 is still in Year 8, will have plenty of opportunities to do so.

I don't know if I dare report back on what options DS choses. I'm not sure all my new found knowledge is going to help much at this stage as he's so set in his own mind. Maths is a definite No. I've talked to him. I've told him everything Antimatter's said. I've suggested further chats with his Maths teacher. But No. He is now considering History and/or Classical Civilisation. Don't suppose Classical Civilisation is thought too highly of either but at least it's on the Cambridge A list for Arts subjects.

OP posts:
ISingSoprano · 10/02/2014 12:26

It's definitely easier second time around. With dd I feel much better informed to help her choose her subjects. The best advice I can give is to look further ahead and spend some time looking at UCAS looking at what universities are asking for.

ChocolateWombat · 10/02/2014 11:48

ISing, good point. This might well be the reason it happens, but it needs addressing doesn't it. Careers or A level advice given in 11to16 schools needs be as relevant as that given in 11to18 schools.

I guess the 11to16s don't tend to get the negative comeback, from kids and parents finding doors closed to them, because they are no longer at that school, by the time they find the doors closed. They need to be given the negative feedback though and have this issue pointed out to them. I have lost track of if the OP is in an 11to16, but think probably yes. The OP needs to tell that school that they have not given her child the advice they needed to make informed choices. They had to go online to find it. It's great the OP now has the right info, but lots of those Year 11s are making choices without the information. Their parents expect the school to tell them what they need to know.

ISingSoprano · 10/02/2014 11:37

ChocolateWombat I think part of the problem is that when students are applying to sixth form which is not part of their school there is very little advice from the school in terms of choosing subjects.

ChocolateWombat · 10/02/2014 11:22

OP, when your child decides (realise they may have a bit longer to make decision) it would be good to know what options they do go for.
And, if you feel you have had to get the info you needed here, rather than from the school, I'd mention it to them. Perhaps they will then do a better job at informing next years Year 11s. I just think it is awful that some perfectly able children, get to the end of Year 12 or start of Year 13 and find the places or courses they would like to apply for are not open to them, because they weren't told the relevant information about what universities want.

ChocolateWombat · 10/02/2014 10:10

I find it shocking that all schools and colleges aren't giving out the Informed Choices document to all of their students for whom RG type Uni might be an option.
As the document says, any facilitating subject, for Law, but History is particularly recommended, although not essential. History builds the skill of evaluating and questioning evidence (think of the source questions and essays) which is why most people doing alas degrees have it as an A level. Interestingly, law schools are also very interested in taking History graduates onto their Law conversion programmes too, due to the skills built up.
So for social sciences at Uni, don't think in terms of doing that subject at A level as necessary at all. Ensure at least 2 facilitating subjects can be carried onto A2 and beyond that, the 3rd can be a social science if you really want to do one.

antimatter · 09/02/2014 15:36

people who are in the top of the top match set will go onto studying maths

he needs it to help him to move up one step towards what he wants to do

I think he needs perhaps another chat with a teacher re: A levels math, I am sure if he does further maths at gcse he will be more than capable of achieving A

I would not do IT, I don't think he will find it interesting enough, if it was Computing - then it would be more likely alongside of his current interest I think.

If he does Eng Lit, Maths - he would cover a lot of possibilities and also would give himself advantage in the future when applying for graduate jobs.

Original poster
Phaedra11 · 09/02/2014 15:22

Antimatter, it's confidence and I have no idea whether it's founded or not. We did talk about it with his Maths teacher at Parents Evening and she thought he would be fine at A level and pointed out that some of what he's doing in GCSE Further Maths is in the A level curriculum. When I reminded him of that, he said it would only be the easier bits though! He seems to think that there will come a point with Maths where he will no longer understand.

I think a lot of it is comparing himself to other people. He's always been in the top Maths set but not top of the top Maths set. Also he sees people like DS2 and a couple of his friends who appear to find it all very easy and actually enjoy it. This makes him think Maths A level is for people like them, not him. I will talk to him again.

BTW- I've read this thread from the beginning and realised that some of what I've said about DS's ambitions has been contradictory. Apologies for that. The reason is that what you've all said had prompted me to have several little chats with DS and he's said different things at different times. I think there has been some progression though and I'm sure we're both better informed now.

OP posts:
antimatter · 09/02/2014 15:05

What makes him believe he can't get A in Maths A level?

Original poster
Phaedra11 · 09/02/2014 15:01

We did look yesterday actually! That was when he told me that he wasn't planning to go further with Computers anyway (for reasons above) but he can't seem to give it up completely either.

I know, I know but there are limits to my influence!

DS2 will be much easier when it's his turn - loves Computers, Maths and Physics - not so keen on Arts subjects/writing essays.

OP posts:
antimatter · 09/02/2014 14:53

Have look which IT degrees would consider student without Maths A level.
I can guess none of good unis as far as Comouter Science is concerned.

Original poster
Phaedra11 · 09/02/2014 14:32

I have suggested Maths as an option but he's not keen. I think one problem is that he knows some real Maths geeks (his younger brother is one) who love Maths and feels he couldn't compete with them at a higher level. He is good enough to have gained an A in GCSE Maths last year and to be put forward for Further Maths this year but he doesn't feel he could go much further. I discovered yesterday that this is also linked with his uncertainty about continuing with Computers/ICT. He and DS2 are bedroom programmers, really into coding and creating little games. DS1 loves all that but is worried that he might reach a plateau with his understanding and not be able to compete with the geniuses! He can't resist the opportunity to study ICT at college though. The syllabus looks right up his street and I don't think anything I could say would put him off.

His real strengths are with the Art subjects where he is predicted A*s. He is very articulate and got the top possible marks for his speaking assessments. I think he has all the right qualities to go into Law. The thing that stops him being absolutely committed to that is that we know plenty of Law graduates and he is very aware of what full training in Law involves.

OP posts:
HmmAnOxfordComma · 09/02/2014 13:52

I think it's worth considering maths instead of IT if he's in any way good enough to get a decent grade in it.

Would be better for computing degrees and law, I suspect, as well as many other options.

English and maths would be two facilitating subjects, then two more (law and sociology? Or law and ict?) would keep his interests covered.

TalkinPeace · 09/02/2014 13:33

Surely the main point of "facilitating subjects" is that they are just broad brush academically rigorous that then let you transfer those skills to other areas

My A's were Maths, Physics and Geography
I did a Geography degree
and am now an Accountant

its all about keeping as many doors open for as long as possible
I can see that Sociology is very "narrowing"
As it IT (rather than maths)
But Law - if the syllabus is rigorous - would teach analytical thinking methods that would be applicable in many walks of life

Original poster
Phaedra11 · 09/02/2014 13:11

Thank you everyone for your help. Eatyourveg (iPad wanted to correct your name to easy purvey!), that link was appreciated and thanks again for your other message.

Thank you, Careers Dragon for sharing your knowledge and expertise. I feel lucky to have input from an actual careers dragon adviser!

ISing, you were spot on about changing minds. If DS knew for sure what he wanted to do, it would be much easier to plan a route to getting there. But hey, he is only 15!

We have talked and DS is happy to change Sociology for another subject. It turns out he has set his heart on Law, English Lit and ICT but is ambivalent about Sociology, especially now he realises it doesn't have the status of some other subjects and is happy to change it to a more acceptable subject which fits in with his possible ambitions. He's considering two possible options at the moment.

We also had a look at this list which I found via another thread? DS has no particular plans for Cambridge but it was interesting as an example of how a prestigious university might view things. It lists Law A level as acceptable only when applying for a Law degree which fits in with what others are saying. We also found it useful to look at the UCAS website and the requirements of other universities.

Thanks again everyone. I was panicking slightly yesterday. I'm only an occasional visitor to Mumsnet and don't think I'd ever visited the Secondary Education thread before. I'd never heard of Facilitating Subjects or Russell Group universities and was beginning to feel like a really rubbish mum for not sorting this out for DS ages ago! Anyway, panic over, we can now continue, all informed and prepared!

OP posts:
CareersDragon · 09/02/2014 10:28

The latest advice suggests that for most Russell Group courses, only one or two facilitating subjects are required. That leaves one or two other subjects, which could include Law. The advice specifically for entry to Law degrees, from the Informed Choices booklet:

"ESSENTIAL ADVANCED LEVEL QUALIFICATIONS
Usually none, although a few universities require English.
USEFUL ADVANCED LEVEL QUALIFICATIONS History; other facilitating subjects.
There really are no essential subjects for Law. Maybe one choice should involve essay or report writing. History gives you good relevant skills for Law but is not essential."

eatyourveg · 09/02/2014 09:59

2009 seems about right as it was 2010 when we were doing the rounds of 6th forms and ds was thinking of doing law at uni

LightastheBreeze · 09/02/2014 09:12

DS is doing a Physics degree at a RG university and he took Law A level, found it very interesting and got an A. It did not seem to stop him getting offers for Physics from the other RG universities he applied too either. In fact they seemed interested on his interviews that he had done a subject that seemed very different from the normal science /maths subjects.

mysteryfairy · 09/02/2014 09:01

This might be a weird suggestion but have a look at the grade statistics for those subjects at wherever he is going. When we looked at local sixth form college there was a general trend for the softer subjects to have lower grades. I don't think this necessarily relates to quality if teaching but actually to the type of students that typically take them. If your DS is very academic he made find it frustrating to go at a slow pace to cater for less academic students.

I work in IT and I don't see ICT being rated as an A level when we recruit. Computer science useful if you want a technical role though the real techie types seem to have done a lot more coding/building hardware etc for leisure than would ever be delivered in an A Level anyway.

wordfactory · 09/02/2014 08:53

Personally, I would still be very sceptical about how many of the most selective universities actually make offers to those with A level law.

There is quite a big gap between what the universities say is the least they will accept and what they actually favour IMVHO

senua · 09/02/2014 08:46

Really interesting because it seems to go against 'received wisdom'.
It's strange that it's not dated. A quick google seems to imply that it is from 2009.

BeckAndCall · 09/02/2014 08:31

That's a really interesting link, eat. - I've never seen that before.

So a Law A level is a perfectly good A level if you want to do a law degree at a Russell university. What it doesn't say, though, is that a Law A level would be OK as a facilitating subject for any other degree. ( just summarising for those who haven't followed the link. And for no reason because all of my DC are past the options stage!)