How clever to get into Grammar school?

At least some of the new genaration will be well educated. It is a shame, a good education should be available for all but in some parts of the country the state secondaries are dreadfull in ALL aspects. Unfortunetely my daughter doesn't have what it takes to get into a Grammar but even to go into a good comp in my area she needs to do well in a exam. She is now in year 2 but I am starting with preparing her at home. And yes she still have a good childhood. Much better than I ever had.

I wish they didn't exist too
We moved out of Kent four years ago and being in a none grammar area is so much fairer. My son got all level 6s in the year 6 sats without a tutor. He was assessed e d of first term yr 7 at 8c working towards end of yr 8a.
I really don't believe all naturally bright children get a place in the Kent grammars, it's unfair and heavily biased towards those that can afford to and will tutor

Kitchensink, The schools are driving this not the parents. Have you seen a selective independent exam some of the questions are GCSE standard.

Dear Kitchensinkmum.

Your tone of voice is far more terrifying.

*parent ...

Isn't there a pushy aren't thread you could all swop too . Omg have you all gone mad ? I feel so sorry for all of your kids .
What about their quality of life.
Two years ahead oh dear oh dear.
Just let them be children. Have you heard yourselves. It's terrifying !!!!!!

I'm afraid that even 'top group for everything' children can't necessarily bank on that being enough to pass the 11+, especially in areas where the exam consists of curriculum-based papers (Maths and English) as well as, or instead of, verbal/non-verbal reasoning.

Not to do with how bright they are, but because many state school children will not have covered the relevant areas of the curriculum by the time they take the exam.

Some of the things that come up in the 11+ maths paper in our area e.g. Mean, median, mode and range, adding and subtracting mixed fractions, and more complex (i.e. not 10%) percentage calculations, I'm not sure would even be covered at ds's school by the end of yr6. I'm having to teach him, after a fashion. (maths dunce here!).

YOure absoluteky rifpght Onesie, It really does depend on the school.

We are a non-grammar area, but live on the edge of an our LA with a super-selective grammar. Typically 15 applicants for each place.

DD1 went to selective independent at 7+. When she moved to secondary (above average comp) at 11, was 2 years ahead.

DD2 (yr6) is at a good community primary, ended yr5 level 5a in Englush and 5c maths. Top of year in English by far, expecting to sit L6 English, possibly maths too.

Neither did the grammar test. I've no doubt DD2 at least would have fitted in well academically at the grammar, but couldn't see either of them passing the entrance exam.

it's unfair and more grammar schools are needed
no thankyou
we have none here and its much better that way.

OP
there are Grammars and grammars
you need to narrow down exactly which type yours is and talk to them.
If you are in a fully grammar area, the other school is of course a SecMod, but it might just do really well with its upper set - some do. Others do not.

Fascinated to see that quite a few mention CAT testing at the KS2 level. Is this administered by the school or commissioned privately? How is the information used? Is it to determine whether pupils are achieving potential? How is it funded?

I heard that a child needs to be working two years in advance of the expected level. Not sure if this is true.

Different grammars have a different pass mark. Our DS got into a good grammar which has a firm middle pass rate.

In his year 2 sats he got 3's for English and high 2's for the rest. His cat scores were 100 (average) 118 (above average)
127 (just under very high)

Also, where they end up at eleven will not determine the course of the rest of their lives. DD1 is in Y8 at grammar school, and already 3 girls have left and others have taken their places. There is a lot of movement over the years, but I think many of us (including me at one point) are guilty of over emphasising the significance of the eleven plus. Also, I know it has been said before, but children who are fortunate enough to be bright will generally do well wherever they end up.

I agree with this from Rabbitcar
"I should add that, whilst my DDs are fairly bright, they are by no means geniuses, so you don't need to be all that clever to get into grammar school. It's more about them becoming familiar with the syllabus and format of the exam."

My eldest went down the grammar school route, passed the 11 plus with an average grade as she found VR to be hit and miss - it was a bit of a miss on the day. She decided not to go to grammar school though we got offered a place, she's now one of the high flyers at the local comprehensive and is on a path that may lead to Oxbridge as she's now year 10 and getting A/A* grades in old GCSE papers that they use for end of term and end of year exams.

Grammar school is not the be all and end all, if you've got intelligent children who will work hard and take education seriously then you've got just as much chance as doing well IMO.

There is lots of information on the Eleven plus exams website

Also, I would say try to get to a bit done each morning when the child is less tired.

If maths is part of the test your child needs to know everything to the end of KS2, so revision guides and workbooks for year 6 will be needed if you want to do the tutoring.

There is plenty of time left to plod through at a steady rate, but it will mean your child doing some work in holidays and at weekends.

Having had a child do several 11+ exams last year I am now of the opinion that those who are prepared to put in the work deserve to get in.

Hi rooners, were in Kent too. They take it in year 6 here, September.
Dd passed, just scraped maths, and went to a grammar with no super selective status. The maths is key I think, our school didn't teach what they needed so she had to learn additional things they didn't do until year six (too late).
Worst choice ever for her - I paid for group tutoring once a week over the summer, and papers for home. She isn't into working which I didn't take into account and so the grammar place is lost on her. She would have been much happier in the secondary.
Ds passed, got over the super selective score . In year six he is a level six. I didn't realise he was so clever. He did online practise twice a week with bofa.

Depends where you are, what the schools are like, how many places etc.

Here in Kent is is fully selective so nearly all the kids do the test and I think the top 25% get into grammar.

We have a super selective school as well. Ds is dyslexic and school refused to acknowledge this for many years so despite being very clever, he didnt pass.

Your dd sounds very bright, I would try and find out the exam setting board for your area and get some practice books that are aimed at that board's exams. (ours are set by GL assessment I think - try WH Smith website for different ones)

If you can get her to try a few papers from those, and see how she gets on, you'll have a better idea.

We didn't use tutoring, as I hated it, but lots of people did. We just did a few papers at home. Well as much as he could stand but I didn't force it too much. With a dyslexic child it won't go in unless you approach it in a specific way which unfortunately I don't know. So it was a bit pointless for us.

Good luck and don't hang about as she will be sitting the paper in the Autumn I imagine.

I should add that, whilst my DDs are fairly bright, they are by no means geniuses, so you don't need to be all that clever to get into grammar school. It's more about them becoming familiar with the syllabus and format of the exam.

Our local grammar currently has over 2000 applicants for 100 places. The likelihood of your child getting in all depends on how selective your school is. But please don't worry, DD1 started preparing in the January of Y5 and got a place, so it can be done. And she says that her friend who was tutored for 4 years is unfortunately struggling now at the school. It all depends on the child, but you shouldn't panic. DD2 is less academic than DD1 but has made it to the last round of the grammar school stage (she may of course not be offered a place) and she only started preparing in the January as well, so it can be done.

Some good advice from others, eg LowClouds, above. One thing I would say is that the difficulty of the different VR and NVR books varies a lot, so make sure you get the right level. On some papers, my DDs were scoring 99%, on others 65%.

The most important thing is to keep the pressure and stress levels down. My DDs found the eleven plus process very tedious and dull, but never stressful.

The best of luck.

Our local grammar has a ratio of 3 to 1 success. ie c. 300 applicants would result in c. 100 successful applicants.

You could move to Bucks! Much better chance. Here there are plenty that are not tutored, especially the further North you go in the County. Many parents prep the children themselves.

"as our school had 200 more applications than places..."

LOL this is a different world - over 1,600 applicants sat the exam for 150 places at Tiffin Girls in 2012 (the same for boys), I believe it was even more this year.

The Sutton grammars are less pressured - similar numbers of applicants but over 400 places across the schools for each gender.

PS Ask the school what the average pass mark is so that when you get nearer the time you have some idea as to how your child is doing.

Hi OP. I hope the following helps:

First go to the website of the school and check out which papers (e.g. VR, Eng, Maths only or NVR too or writing paper too) and the format of the 11 plus e.g. multiple choice or standard, plus the duration of each paper and the relative weight given to each paper.

Second. Starting in Year 5 is fine. If your child sits the exam in the Autumn term, there is ample time to prepare and familiarise with the process.

Third. Preparing at home without a tutor is fine too as long as your child genuinely is motivated to sit the exam and is prepared to go for it. Some kids love VR for example and it can be made into a game.

Fourth. In addition to preparing for the test, keep injecting lots of fun into it e.g. go onto fun websites www.thelogiczone is a good one and do logic puzzles from the newspaper. Write fun messages in code to each other - and change the code logic often...do treasure hunts with coded clues.

Fifth. For Maths, Eleven Plus Exam Group (search online) does good practice papers. For Verbal Reasoning, the best we found were those published by Walsh (again, search online). Bond is good for English papers.

Sixth. Read to your child the books that may just be a stretch so that you can enjoy literature together, talk about it and extend vocabulary. Go to the library and feed the reading habit. Put a dictionary by the bed.

Seventh. Start off with a few untimed (leisurely pace and spaced out over days) practice papers PURELY to assess gaps and so you know which areas need work. Thereafter, don't spend hours doing exam papers. A few weeks before the exam, do a dummy run under exam type conditions. That way, little details can be ironed out.

Finally and most importantly. Keep the process pleasant and unstressful. Don't practice when your child is tired or desperately unmotivated. Keep the sessions short and pick your moments! Make it clear that this is a journey that can be fun and that the journey is far more important than the exam. Stress and disappointment are crushing. Your child will learn so much from preparing for the exam, that whatever the outcome, you will have provided a wonderful foundation.

Bonne chance!

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere it was level 5 equviliant for them? I was level 5 in everything, I was a bright child but I don't think a bit if tutoring would of done me any harm. If the local secondary is terrible there's no harm doing a bit of prep work is there? Luckily my DS is well off going secondary school but if the non grammar's stay as bad as they are here now (they are terrible, a few made the 100 worst) i'd probably give him a bit of prep to for the test.