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Why are comprehensive schools allowed to have selective Sixth Forms?

66 replies

Reincarnatedpig · 23/01/2014 11:18

This is really bugging me. DD is in year 10 at a comprehensive school with a banded admission procedure (all applicants take a test and places are awarded equally to each of the four ability bands). However the Sixth Form is a different story. They are now asking for all grades at GCSE to be B or above with A's in the proposed A level subjects. DD is dyslexic, she has sat 3 GCSEs so far with B's in all 3. She would like to do English A level but only got a B overall in English Language which she sat in Nov, she cannot resit (she will sit Lit in year 11). She got A/A* in the coursework but only a C in the exam. She is bright and in the top stream.

I just cannot understand why a comp is allowed to do this. They only offer A levels anyway. Surely someone with a B is capable of getting a reasonable grade at English A level. She wants to do fine art at college so grades are not that important overall but she would have liked to have stayed at her current school with her friends and there are no good alternatives.

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Reincarnatedpig · 26/01/2014 09:26

Chocolate all that is pretty irrelevant to my DD. She intends to do fine art in which she is talented. You cannot write someone off at 14 because they are one mark short of an A in English or judge them incapable of doing an A level. BTW I know plenty of people who did badly at GCSE, even A level but managed to get into University and have a good career.

Among my colleagues there are people with Ph.Ds and people with no degree at all doing exactly the same job (internal candidates are able to compete for the graduate training programmer without a degree). Sorry but the traditional educational route is not the only one to success and there are plenty of people with good degrees stacking shelves.

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ChocolateWombat · 26/01/2014 09:03

The policy of entry requirements is no more selective than life Im Afraid. Universities will require certain grades and saying you have had poor teaching in the past, will not result in lower offers. When firms look at job applications, one of their criteria will be GCSE or A Level or degree grades and they will bin those who don't meet their threshold requirement. They won't give special consideration to those from certain backgrounds or even dyslexia I'm afraid. It's the reality of the world.
After the early entry with no resit option is dealt with, your daughter will have to compete with everyone else. I know we don't like to think any doors are closed to our children, but as they get older we and they have to understand that the world is a competitive place. Her exam results will be the things that are seen first by educational establishments and employers. If she under performs in exam conditions, it will disadvantage her in many situations, which might not be right, but you do have to accept it is the system we live in. Sorry if it sounds harsh.
If you believe she has the ability to achieve good grades at A level in an exam, which will be good enough to get her to the next stage, perhaps go to the other establishment which will take a B. you could always ask for statistics of the A level grades achieved by those who started with As and those who started with Bs.

Reincarnatedpig · 25/01/2014 23:36

Mumslife, I did A levels many years ago and remember the jump. DD1 is in year 13 though and finds English Lit quite easy. She is extremely able,with a high aptitude for English, but not dyslexic like DD2, who is I think the brighter child. DD1 got 96 per cent ums at AS (from memory) and is predicted A* at A2.

I don't think restricting A levels to those with a minimum of A at GCSE is realistic. The other (partly) secular school in the borough asks for Bs as do the local FE colleges. Not only does this discriminate against dyslexic children but also those who have frankly had poor teaching or live in difficult circumstances.

I really enjoyed English Lit as do both DDs and I think if DD2 wants to study it at A level she should be allowed to even if she does art foundation for which she needs no A levels at all.

I think the school is trying to reinvent itself as selective. I know they don't actually fill the Sixth Form places. The proportion of A students definitely doesn't come from the school. There are 60 kids in the top stream and they certainly don't all get straight A's. I think the best thing I can do for DD2 is intensive training in exam technique. I dislike the school and would like her to leave but there is no obviously better alternative.

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mumslife · 25/01/2014 22:45

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mumslife · 25/01/2014 22:43

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ravenAK · 25/01/2014 21:43

GCSEs are intended to be a comprehensive qualification, suitable for all 16yos.

A/A* identifies the top 25% in that particular subject; these are the students who'll be able to do well at A Level. The school will be under huge pressure to maximise its A Level results, so there's no incentive for them to offer a place to a

copanya · 25/01/2014 21:27

I must say it was a surprise to me to see how selective our comprehensive's 6th form is, but when you chew over all the arguments I think it is reasonable that it is like this, even if at times it seems cruel.

However I think if nothing short of an A at GCSE is good enough, you have to wonder whether the our current GCSE system is a bit wonky. For what its worth, I got a B's at GCSE in the seventies and there were no questions asked about doing the A level in that subject.

ChocolateWombat · 24/01/2014 20:23

I can see what you mean. Most pupils don't really benefit from taking exams early. Many will achieve a grade lower than they would a year later. The only reason I can see for it is they are trying to relieve the pressure of pupils taking so many exams at once.....and this is caused by putti g them in for too many GCSEs (most selective schools will only do 9 GCSEs because more than that are of absolutely no benefit. Better to get 8 or so good ones than more mediocre ones). That issue is for another thread though.
However you are right that if they are put in early,especially for a core subject,they should be given the chance to retake, (if there is a sense of underperformance) especially if they have been promised it.
However, I still think the evidence shows that it is important for schools to set entry requirements for Academic A level courses, because it helps no one to have students doing them who have no real chance of success. Whilst it seems at odds with the experiences we as parents had doing A levels successfully from Bs and Cs at GCSE, these days such GCSE grades are not sufficient for A level success in subjects like maths. The jump up is great.....partly due to topics which used to be In GCSE having been cut....again another thread topic.
Ability in the subject is one thing to consider when deciding to do A levels, but so is being able to manage in exams.....because that is how the grades will be given at the end. It won't matter if you are good in class or in non timed conditions, exam performance is what will matter.

ItsATIARA · 24/01/2014 16:34

Whilst I agree that there's generally a case for restricting A level entry to those with a decent chance of success, in your DD's case I'd kick up an enormous fuss, because her B grade is not a reflection of her abilities, it's a consequence of the school's decision to put her in too early and then refusing to let her resit as per the original plan. I hold no brief for Gove, but I'm much more shocked by the school's decision to ban retakes that would benefit their pupils just because there's nothing in it for them. Does this strike nobody else as a grossly selfish dereliction of duty?

SlowlorisIncognito · 24/01/2014 13:56

I understand your problem with this. However, if the sixthform only offers A-levels, what is the point of setting students up to fail? The school will have based their entry requirements on the profile of candidates they believe can cope with A-levels. It does seem a bit strict, and perhaps you could argue an exemption for your DD. However, the jump for GCSE to AS is a major step up, and there is no point letting lots of students in, only for them to fail all their AS exams.

I went to sixth form at a comprehensive school, and the grades needed to get into sixth form were fairly lenient (5 A*-C grades including English and maths, however if one out of English or maths was lower than a C, you were allowed to resit it in October). However, the requirement to do individual subjects was usually a B grade as a minimum in those subjects, with an A being asked for in the sciences and maths. So, in reality, someone who got 5 C grades would be unlikely to continue on to do A-levels.

People often still failed and dropped out in the first term, and were often put off education entirely, when a BTEC at college might have been a better path for them. I think it's probably the best thing for students to be made to consider other routes than A-levels and university, as it's really not for everyone.

If she gets an A in lit, I am sure you would be able to make a good case for her to be allowed to do English A-level.

Reincarnatedpig · 24/01/2014 13:36

Thanks prh47bridge, I never thought of that!

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prh47bridge · 24/01/2014 12:50

The school DD attends is also proposing to redraw its catchment area to exclude the poorest area of the borough

That may well be a breach of the Admissions Code. Make your objections known to the consultation. If they still go ahead you should refer the matter to the Schools Adjudicator who will decide whether or not the school has breached the Code.

Reincarnatedpig · 24/01/2014 12:25

Yes my elder daughters school expect 4 A* at GCSE for those doing the med school combination of A levels and won't let anyone without triple science study sciences at A level, but they are a selective school.

What I can't understand re non academically selective schools; one school demanding A's, the others and the FE colleges asking for B's. The school DD attends is also proposing to redraw its catchment area to exclude the poorest area of the borough from which a majority of its pupils currently come.

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tiggytape · 24/01/2014 11:51

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wordfactory · 24/01/2014 11:37

Our local CofE school makes a big thing of all joiners in year 7 having to have letters from the vicar yadda yadda. Kind, Christian, inclusive yadda yadda.

Then kicks out anyone who doesn't get an A and allows the local high achieving heathens from independent schools to join at sixth form Grin.

Reincarnatedpig · 24/01/2014 09:53

Starballbunny, it sounds like your daughter has had to fight for everything, I know how you feel! I am sure she will go on to have a wonderful career - I think one attribute of dyslexia is the ability to see the world a bit differently - a good attribute for a research scientist.

Chocolatewombat, thank you for your comments. What a pity that we judge success in terms of exam results. Benefits those like me and DD1 who can memorise and regurgitate in the prescribed format, but not a good test of ability overall.

Nearthewindmill, my daughter doesn't aspire to teaching or admin. At my workplace they make special software or other aids available to colleagues with particular needs including dyslexic people who do admin. I am certainly not aware of any problems with work rate.

I have quite a few dyslexic colleagues (graduate entry profession) and they seem to cope fine though they have reasonable adjustments in exams (extra time, use of laptop) and special software for their day to day work if need be. I used to work with a brilliant man with fantastic organizational and public speaking skills who was dyslexic but he couldn't scan text or spell very well at all. It make no difference to his ability to do his job and he reached the top of his profession.

Olivevoir58 thank you for your constructive suggestions. I had discounted the school due to a dislike of the previous head ( I heard him describe his own pupils as "thick as planks") I had a look on their website and they do accept students with B's in Sixth - looks like it will expand down the vocational route this year as well.

Yes, MrsBright it is all about league tables. The school has a rather narcissistic Head who regards the school as his personal fiefdom, rather than thinking about the interests of the students or local community. I think DD is better off out of it.

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NearTheWindmill · 24/01/2014 08:41

Agrees with everything Chocolate Wombat has said. Unfortunately getting extra time at school does help the person with dyslexia to pass but if they end up in an admin job or even in teaching they will struggle with paperwork and whilst adjustments will be made to support them they will still be expected to get the same amount of work done as their colleagues. It's a tricky one all round.

tiggytape · 24/01/2014 08:35

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MrsBright · 24/01/2014 07:57

Blame the League Tables. All the reasons you might have picked that school are now being used to exclude some children.

That is the reality of a results driven culture.

ChocolateWombat · 24/01/2014 07:30

I'm sure you are right that the extra time doesn't totally level the playing field. It is an attempt to go in that direction.

The sad reality is that we live in a country where exams are the key way of assessing people. Those who struggle in an exam environment don't perform so well. GCSE exams are a good predictor of A level success which is why schools use the, as entry requirements. The system might be wrong, but universities and employers use those exam based grades as a basis for judgement, so we do have to work within the system. More children are probably suited to undertake the study required and understand the material than are able to perform in the exam....but that is the system, and we are moving closer to it, with the reduction in coursework.
If you are sure A level English right for your daughter and the exam wouldn't be a big issue for her, then the idea up thread of re sitting privatelty the GCSE is a good one. If she was so close last time, then she has a good chance of getting the grade. Good luck.
There will always be borderline cases, but schools need entry requirements in place so that broadly the right people do the right courses. There are always grey areas and it sounds like your daughter might me one. Best of luck.

olivevoir58 · 24/01/2014 06:52

How about re entering your dd for the exam as a private candidate in the summer? Her CA would still count towards the final grade (though not sp and li). If she improved her result to an A, would school accept that? If it's the school I think it is, the recentlyish opened church/LA academy down the road has a good 6th form from what I hear and doesn't require church attendance.

Starballbunny · 24/01/2014 01:48

No extra time does not level the playing field, it's a small and for my DD1 useful apology for the 'unfairness' she has suffered since reception.

If DD1 lived in a world where exams were aural she'd get A* across the board.

If she lived in a country with a more phonetic language or if her schools had decent dyslexia support she'd way better.

Extra time is a feeble apology for the shocking amount of effort it takes to get dyslexia recognised and appalling lack of help available.

It's a tiny recognition of the huge waste of talent that results from one size fits all written exams being the only way to measure a persons intelligence and employability.

DD wants to be a research scientist to work in a field where any written piece of work she does will be carefully crafted on a computer, the technical terms looked up if she's forgotten how to spell them.

No one will care about her B/C in English they will care that she has a quick interested brain, a hardworking nature and a deep love of working out how the world works.

Reincarnatedpig · 24/01/2014 00:02

I do not agree that extra time levels the playing field, it makes no difference to DD quite frankly. Perhaps more practice in exam technique might.

If she had got one mark more she would be eligible to do her A level at school. If she gets A/A* in coursework she is capable of doing A level. She wants to do it, she loves English. I know she would make a good contribution to her class and add value in that respect.

She intends to apply for fine art in HE so her A level grades won't make a great deal of difference.

I have an elder child with all A/A at GCSE and predicted all A at A2. IMO the children are equally bright - DD2 perhaps more so.

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ChocolateWombat · 23/01/2014 21:44

Should have added that those with recognised SEN get extra time in exams etc and may have some allowances made for them in termsnof entry requirements. However they to ably had extra time at GCSE too, so in that sense their GCSEs have been boosted up to create a level playing field.
A levels are becoming more exam focused and less coursework focused. This doesn't suit everyone and people who panic in GCSEs may do it in A levels too. It's just the academic nature of A levels that means an academic approach, which doesn't suit everyone.

Good luck Op in finding the right place and course for your daughter.

ChocolateWombat · 23/01/2014 21:39

If a sixth form only offers A levels, it needs to be selective. A levels are not suitable for all students and never have been. The school or college would not be doing kids a favour to let them start A levels when they don't have a chance of success.
Uni courses are increasingly competitive. Good grades at A level are needed to get onto the best courses at the best places. With the high level of debt incurred and high graduate unemployment, more people are thinking carefully about if Uni is the best option for them. Spending 2 years to achieve very low grades or fail is really not a good use of time and schools know that.
Schools which offer a range of vocational or other courses may be more open access, but there are often some requirements for these courses too.
It is not unusual these days to require an A at GCSE in the subject you want to do at A level. People with Bs may be let onto some courses, but statistically their chances are not good. With a C at GCSE in that subject, you really have no real chance of a good grade.
It seems harsh, but people need to think really carefully about if A levels are the right choice for their child and certainly about their subject choice. Schools are interested in league tables, but also the interests of their kids and pushing to start with grades below the requirement isn't usually doing kids a favour.

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