I'm just getting my head round Gove's changes to the exam system- and I am even mor horrified than I thought I would be!

I'm a parent of reasonably academic kids, and my problem with the new system of "First Attempt Only" is that it leads exactly to what ReallyTired dreads - endless revision and take the exam at the last possible moment so you spend a full year simply polishing and revising. That way, they make no mistakes, but all the challenge has gone. Early maths has wrongly gone as a concept.

For the kids Curlew speaks of, I think I agree: they are just going to get blown away by this tougher system and you can't help think that a CSE or BTEC might be better. For teachers it makes the whole thing more complex.

I do really fear that the new reforms aimed at increased rigour are going to demonstrate perfectly the law of unintended consequences. It just shows that you tinker with these things at your peril.

Bonsoir, I think you might have a different view of the wonders of French infrastructure if you lived in the countryside. Power outages, brown water, no public transport, terrible road surfaces, no snow ploughs and worst of all half a megabyte of broadband are all part of daily life.
I will shut up now and let the thread go back on topic.

To those who say BTEC's are an 'easy option' - you're wrong. I believed that when the school pushed DD into doing Health & Social Care BTEC.

The content is FAR harder than ANY of her GCSE's, and in fact is the only subject she won't achieve a grade in at all.

As an example - her current topic is 'Barriers' - geographic barriers, physical barriers, emotional and mental barriers, financial barriers...and she has to discuss, compare and contrast these barriers, identify what they would be in a variety of different issues that people may face, and work out solutions to those barriers, how to overcome them.

This is a child with Auditory and Sensory processing disorders, moderate learning difficulties, dyslexia, Dyspraxia and blah de blah de blah.

How the FUCK is she meant to have the analytical thought processes to complete this topic?!

It really ISN'T an easy option, whatever people say. They are taught in mixed ability groups, so DD is currently working 4 grades below the next lowest pupil in the class, as DD is currently getting 'U' in every topic, and the next lowest in class is working at a 'D' grade. The A* students in other subjects are getting 'B 's or 'C' s in this BTEC. Hardly an 'easy option'

I think the French are pretty good at ensuring that everyone has water, electricity, trains, roads etc! The integrated basic infrastructure is amazing. It's just not true that their products aren't compatible or user-friendly.

As I say, you need both the long slow theoretical perfectionists and the practical go-for-it approach to make the world work.

Yes they do, but I think we have all seen the problems caused in large French companies when competition means that people have to think quickly, do things "out of the box" (apologies for cliché), work in teams etc. My OH used to work as a troubleshooting consultant with large R and D departments who could design very elegant products that didn't work with anything else. The charming traditions that make so many things a pleasure are also a huge disadvantage I think.

I was having a similar conversation with my (French) DSS1 who is at university in England. He is a bit stressed at the thought of exams that will require him to write 3 or 4 essays in 3 hours as he is trained to do exams that require 1 essay in four hours. We talked about the French approach which requires you to demonstrate knowledge of a lot of theory and to write to an elaborate plan versus the English approach where you are under intense time pressure and must demonstrate your point quickly and concisely.

Both approaches have their uses.

Yes I am sure you are right, I just hadn't thought about it before.
I do think that some French institutions (certainly bits of l'administration) suffer from too much of an intellectual / philosophical / theoretical approach and not enough pragmatism and common sense. I know a lot of French people who think the same.
Sorry, gone very off-topic here.

EmilyAlice - why surprised? All DC do philosophy in Terminale but Bac L pupils no longer do maths. An L-heavy lycée (perfectly possible in theory) would teach more philosophy than maths.

Have to say I was a tiny bit surprised to hear from someone who teaches in a lycée that their philosophy department is as big as the maths department, though.
I agree with the comment up thread about negative press in the UK. Our local paper in France is always full of good news stories about schools, whereas the UK press, local and national, is so negative. There have been some really convoluted headlines this week along the lines of "fewer schools failing to make the grade". More schools succeeding anyone?

It's really hard to get DC to read anything much that was written in French. Modern French children's literature is unbelievably dull.

The French read a high percentage of books in translation, as do the Germans.

France is un pays d'ingénieurs. Science and engineering is what they are good at - witness France's comparative advantage in planes, trains, roads, pharmaceuticals, power...

Literary production is rubbish.

Talking philosophy was the basis of science and the ability to ask good question and use logic is still a fundamental skill for most subjects including science. From a cultural point of view learning about previous philosophers is as interesting as anything else.

I think Talkin has a very vivid imagination .

I love the way talkin just makes something up about a system she wants to derides and presents it as fact. Then she doesn't acknowledge that she's just made it up .

I know someone in RL like this. She makes a statement (usually utter nonsense) then makes those quotationmarks with her fingers and shouts 'FACT'. .

That doesn't change the underlying principle of what I am saying. Different examinations have different purposes.

There is too much flexibility in the English examination process to make them fit for purpose, which is (a) to ensure everyone reaches the same minimum skill level in basic education (b) to compare one pupil with another at a given point in their education and to draw conclusions as to their relative achievement.

But with a driving lesson you can have has many attempts and s long as you like to pass it. School exams have to be passed in a finite time.

I don't think there is any sort of inevitability there. After all, more and more people have a driving licence but standards required to obtain one have got higher, not lower.

Bonsoir
"What I am defending is the fact that over 80% of DC pass it each year, which at least gives some kind of minimum guarantee of precisely what the population is able to do."

One of the main differences seems to be that if 80% of pupils pass (in your system) it is hailed as a success.
If 80% of pupils passed in the English system it is seen as dumbing down the system.

TalkinPeace I am surprised you don't like Gove while thinking French economy is dismal because they teach children philosophy.... Even apart from assuming all is OK with the British economy, one wouldn't know where to start talking about what is so fundamentally wrong with your statement

The French system is full of things that need improving too!

yup, lets send Gove to France
he'll like it and they'll like him

There is no philosophy in the brevet.