If your child has chronic behaviour problems at school but no SN

Some schools are better at coping with square pegs. I have been in schools which were dealing quite well with some tricky children (with no diagnosable SN).
On the other hand some children do better with "alternative" provision. But keeping going with the school provision and always being an involved and listening parent can help.

I really would ask lots of questions of any possible secondaries at your stage.

Why do you feel he won't get the recognition needed to support his additional behaviour needs?

At this stage, he doesn't fit in the box labelled 'school' and you've said there are issues with other relationships.

Schools follow a square peg fits in a square hole type policy, they have no additional back up for a child who is a different shaped 'peg' without accessing legislation which should give them extra people or resources to do the job.

So, you then end up with the different shaped 'peg' on a special or specific needs register because its the only way schools know how to access information on doing something outside of the expected format

It may be more helpful to you to think of your son as having an individual need (indeed this is what my ds school calls their policy when children need things to be done a little differently to the 'norm')

So, the starting point for you needs to be a professional assessment of his individual need, what triggers it - the behaviour support teacher ds saw at one time called it ABC - what happens before the behaviour (can it be distracted from for example), the behaviour itself (what role do adults play during the behaviour) and the conclusion (how does your ds feel when the behaviour is over)

Then, they move onto whether your ds can modify his own behaviour (in which case they use reward charts etc) or whether the environment needs to be modified (allowing to go to a quieter space etc)

From what you have written, you may need to look at a different school as the present one doesn't sound like its supporting ds or you.

Unfortunately without being able to identify the additional individual need he has, schools often can't provide any tailored support.

What are they actually doing to support him in school?

Is there something going on in his life which could make him act like this? what is his relationship with his dadlike?

f he loathes school, then I think that is your explanation!
How does he behave at home and in other situations?

But being "difficult" can be enough to get a child on the SEN register, SEN doesn't necessarily equal SN.
I have one of my children on the SEN register purely at my request, it helped a lot at secondary - teachers realised that however charming and hard working she might seem, she doesn't always understand what is going on.

Also having taught in secondary schools, having a child on the register really helps you know that this child "has difficulties" and is not just acting up for you.

I would be contacting schools now if I was you and requesting to speak to the SENCO (year 5 before the secondary is busy with transition is an ideal time).

BTW one of my children is diagnosed with Asperger's and scores lowly on most of those questionnaires unless you think really hard to get examples of the "ASD" behaviour.

I think one thing you/DS need to do is to try to identify the triggers to his behaviour (ask school to keep a record not just of bad behaviour but activites/events/time of day etc to help work these out). Is he worse when tired, hot, hungry etc. Is it avoidance of work (dislikes task, fearing failure, being disinterested etc.). There is always a trigger (even in the tiny % who have a genuine behaviour disorder), even if we cannot immediately see it.

Explicitly teaching new responses to triggers and also explicitly teaching him to use different (less confrontational) body language and how to interpret body language of others (esp. teachers). School to agree a 'contingency contract' with DS where they agree what work will be done, consequences for non-compliance, agreed strategies for 'time-out' if he feels things are gong wonky (and doesn't abuse this by simply opting out if he can't be bothered). He/you need a system with clarity where misunderstandings will be reduced and there is consequently less need for the teacher to become angry. An agreed discipline strategy (in line with an IEP if necessary) - again keeps consequences clear and fair.

"Lost at school" explains how the Greene approach can be used at school. Obviously it requires school to buy into it - easier said than done! I actually sent my ds' senco a copy of that article I linked to (which is based on "lost at school") to back up my argument that consequences/punishments for his meltdowns/refusals are counter productive for ds, which school did agree.

About the SN label...totally take your point...but having one helps the school take you seriously ( again, IMVVVHO!)

I know children with a Dx of PDA who aren't charming, articulate or manipulative! Just very anxious explosive children who really cannot deal with the demands of school. Might be worth a further look. It's under diagnosed (IMVVVHO).

Very sad your primary won't come to a transition meeting with you. That's rubbish.

Sorry about the LAC comment I made... I thought I remembered you from the adoption boards.

Have you read any Ross Greene books lljkk? "The Explosive Child" and "Lost at School" might be worth a look. See a summary of his approach here.

I have looked at PDA but DS is not remotely charming,manipulative or articulate

Neither is DS3, if fact he is surly, demanding and often refuses to talk at all .

I don't think anyone is suggesting that your DS has PDA, just that some of the techniques developed for children with PDA might be useful to you.

Much good advice here but I also think that as a parent you need to constantly reinforce the behaviour YOU expect of him in school eg doing the work set. (not nagging or criticising anything he's done just calmly and firmly saying 'I want you to do what Miss X asks today' etc). In my experience If DC gets idea that a parent is siding with them in poor behaviour and believing it is all to do with teacher's approach then DC may not improve and may exploit the situation.

My ds has done similar in the past. Now in yr 7 hes got a fantastic head of year and I would echo what others have said.
Make an appointment with the head and SENCO of new school (ds current headmaster met him and said 'hes quirky, but we like quirky)
Consider asking for a referral to an Ed Psych.
Ds previous school were convinced he had aspergers, he doesn't.
The ed psych was able to give school and teachers strategies and information on what language they should use rather than trying to knock ds down. So, instead of 'you have to do this' she requested they say 'when you have done x, then you can do y'
It sounds ridiculous but it really worked.
I wonder if your ds is very creative? Ds form teacher said last term that 'when inspired there is nothing this child cannot achieve'
Your ds may find that the different format of secondary works much better as its not one teacher all day, any teacher they do clash with then its not constant.
He may also be very bored by the ritual of primary which if they are creative can seem very repetitive so as someone said above any anxiety feeds the behaviour because winding up the teacher becomes the only interesting thing going on! Secomdary tends to be busier and they are expected to be independent.
Be reassured that there is plenty of scope for the school and teachers to improve things for your ds and a behaviour support/ed psych really can come in and suggest things which seem blindly obvious which school often don't seem to think about.

At my school, we use the following strategies:

PLP (Personal Learning Plan) for students regardless of placement on SEN register - this has helpful info for teachers including the students' likes/dislikes (in general and in class) Students have been involved in writing the PLPs and typically they say things like "I don't like it if you tell me off in front of the class, so if you need to talk to me, please do it outside the room" and "I like working by myself, so if you ask me to do group work I will find it hard" This is really helpful when planning.

Timeout cards - if students know that they might react violently/aggressively to situations, they have a card which they can show, and then have 2 minutes outside the room to calm down.

A named and trusted person (in our case, a TA - he's young and a trained counsellor) they can go to if they need to - at any point during the day.

A school policy called Discipline with Dignity (not ours - google it) which is exactly what it sounds like, and means that staff are strongly encouraged to deal with behaviour in a specific way, and that if we don't, we are pulled up on it.

It is also policy to use "language of choice" with students - ie "Tom, if you choose not to sit down/carry on with your work/have a go at question 6, you are choosing a yellow card/to stay in at break time with me to complete it/whatever appropriate sanction" and to use our praise system 4x as often as the sanction system (simple green/yellow/red on board) SLT will pop in on learning walks and it's one of the things they want to see - 4x as many names on the green list as the yellow or red list. Name on the green list = house points.

Of these, the PLPs are most useful. The timeout cards are always issued in consultation with parents and are obviously reviewed if it is felt that the student is abusing it.

Might be worth a conversation with the SENCO/Inclusion person at the secondary school so systems can be put in place to support. If your DS was at our school, his PLP would have something like "XXX responds far better to encouragement than to sternness. If XXX loses his temper, then coaxing helps"

Oh, and open evenings are ok but a waste of time for a proper discussion about your child. At the open evening ask who is the right person to speak to about a child with extra needs. Get their name, email them and go for a a proper 1-1 meeting at another time. Also your primary should be helping with this...they should be able to come with you to a meeting about transition planning for your DS? And he should be involved too...it's good for him to identify what makes the day go well, and what makes the day go badly. Eg... I like it when people stay away from me, I like it when it's quiet, I don't like crowds, i don't like teachers asking me things in public etc

Good point about demand avoidance, I often wondered this with my son, (not Dx with ASD, but definite features esp when younger).

I was totally up front with the secondary...asked to meet the head of year 7, or the whoever looks after new entrants, and told them all his little quirks (!), and said what we'd found to be helpful and what we'd found to be hopeless (rewards...not interested in the slightest, being left alone was what he craved).

I got the feeling they were very grateful I'd made the effort to get organised and try and get off to a good start. I did made it very clear that I wasn't excusing bad behavior or expecting him to get off scot-free if he was being awful, but thAt it if he was approached in the right way then things wouldn't need to turn into a big drama.

Remember, most teacher want their lessons to go smoothly and to not have to deal with poor behaviour, so they welcome a heads up about how that can be achieved.

Forgive me if not relevant LIjkk, but isn't your DS a previously looked after child? The school should have someone who is the designated teacher for children who were or are LAC. Most schools should know by now that these children come with extra social/personal needs esp with forming relationships with adults.

Lots of these behaviours could be linked under the heading of 'demand avoidance'.

I have two DC with ASD and this is an issue for one of them (btw, I'm not suggesting your DS has ASD, but that it might be worth thinking about how it is dealt with when DC are diagnosed).

Demand avoidance is usually considered within ASD as a method to control anxiety. In other words, when you feel out of control, you deal with this by trying to exercise control over the bits of your life that you can. This can mean refusing to do things expected of you. Giving back more control to the child, so negotiating rather than telling, usually helps.

This means that a good strategies can include being indirect in requests (so not do the task, better once the task is done, X will happen), giving a choice of task. So rather than do X, asking the child to choose between doing X & Y etc etc.

I always admire your responses on other threads LIjkk.

My DS1 was a right tricky customer throughout school ( in retrospect HE would have been better, but there you go, easy to be wise afterwards).

To be surprise I found our secondary school to be unbelievably helpful. Really I well up when I think about how much they believe in him and helped him to succeed.

The key is getting one or two teachers on side...ideally his form tutor or head of house type person. The other needs to be someone who teaches his favourite thing (my son it was the PE teacher).

Go and talk to them before he starts and make a plan. I felt the secondary ( BTW, ordinary, state, non selective etc) wanted him to do well for his sake and for theirs.

He left with a load of good grades and is at college. Something I thought might never happen when he was 13.