Wilson's vs. Sutton Grammar school?

Thanks Ladymuck, know a lot more now about SGS. Of course, we have put in the government form already and have put SGS as first choice because it is within walking distance from home (hope that 4 mark band will help). I guess nothing can be done on grammar schools now and just to prepare my DS on private school Jan exams as a plan B in case he did not get into any of the grammar schools! Have to work on verbal reasoning now as he did not work on that for a while because we did not try Tiffin Boys and had been focus on English and Maths!

Some schools give more information than others, and from what I understand their sons have scored highly enough to be certain of a place at one of their schools. I live in an area where there is no comprehensive school within 4 miles where we would get a place on distance, so it isn't as if they are sacrificing another "safe" option.

Why put 6 GS down on your CAF , if the child doesn't get in to any you will be allocated a random school in the borough. Need to put a realistic back up in ... Some people at unfair to their children

In Reply to Garibaldigirl - have you looked at Box Hill. We have sent a number of boys there in the past who were more into outdoor pursuits than team games.

Absolutely - it is all down to where your son is on the ranked list of candidates, and how many boys are ahead of him without offers from other preferred school.

The subject of the last few posts though is whether in fact sitting the 2nd test means that you are on the ranked list automatically (even in a low position) as is the case with Tiffin Girls, or whether there will be a second cut-off point, so that you will never be eligible for a place, even from the waiting list.

It might all be moot - in reality SGS and the other 2 schools will fill all their spaces from boys who have "passed" both sets of exams. But I do get the impression that there has been a larger number of boys travelling quite some distance to sit exams this year, and ultimately, regardless of how many exams you sit, you can only have one place. Ds has 2 classmates who have put 6 grammar schools on their CAF. The SGS criteria are interesting as given the ranking is banded in groups of 4 marks, then distance from school plays a large part since as many as 30-50 boys will be in this 4 mark band.

Really intereting about the 2nd test at SGS. Even if we assume that every boy has passed the 2nd test (as SGS is obliged by law to say so), they may not get in and it all depends on what marks your DS has got and what preference you have submitted on the government form

That is a lot of valuable information Ladymuck
We have named SGS as our first choice...fingers crossed.
I must say SGS has not been fair re their timing of the 2nd stage exam!

Anyone who did sit Sutton may find it interesting to read the admissions policy for Tiffin Girls school (which ran its 2nd stage exam on the same day at SGS). Here it is clear that all girls would be on the ranked list, and they specifically emphasise that the results of the 1st test are sent out to comply with the Admissions Code.

I don't have specific or private knowledge that everyone has passed on Saturday - but that is how it has been presented to us by our primary school. It seems that that is wrong, though it does feel as if SGS's website is at best unclear. I'm also intrigued as to how the admission policy will be seen to comply with the code 1.32c

"The admission authority must take all reasonable steps to inform parents of the outcome of selection tests before the closing date for secondary applications on 31 October so as to allow parents time to make an informed choice of school - while making clear that this does not equate to a guarantee of a selective place."

How can SGS defend the timing of their second test this year, given that Wilsons and WCGS managed to meet the 31 October deadline? Especially as all 3 schools had the same length of time after the SET, and the same pool of 798 candidates to work with? It was presented to us as a case of they could only comply if in fact all children would be on the ranked list, but it appears that that won't be the case? The main thing that has changed from last year is that the SET is now used by all 3 grammar schools; I wonder whether this would make an appeal against the admission policy more likely to succeed, especially if anyone is in a LA which only allows 3 or 4 schools to be named on the CAF? Hard for SGS to say that their delay is reasonable.

Doesn't affect us personally as ds chose not to sit Sutton anyway, but had we done so I would be asking questions. That said I've checked the Sutton email, and it doesn't confirm eligibility, which does seem to contradict the FAQs which I quoted earlier.

As I understand it:
Ladymuck has knowledge that everyone who sat the Stage 2 has actually passed
This means that all will be put on a ranked list for consideration for a place
But it does not mean everyone will get a place - that will depend on how far up the ranking they are in terms of score and how many boys who scored more in the test have favoured other schools above SGS
But that because this year all who sat the test have passed, those who don't actually get offered a place on Mar 3rd will be eligible to go on the waiting list.

Perhaps Sutton have been a little misleading then Ladymuck (it was a surprise last year too) but reading this on their website today suggests it will be the same as recent years:
When will I receive an offer of a school?
You will not receive an offer until 3rd March 2014 (National Offer Day). Offers of places at Sutton Grammar School are dependent not only on passing the Sutton Grammar School second stage Entrance Examination and your son’s position in the rank order, but also on whether or not you have placed another school or schools higher on your list of preferences and, if you have, on the outcome of the process at those schools.

We know that the heads of Sutton, WCGS and Wilsons have all met over admissions - they jointly set the pass mark on the SET.

They have had to make various changes as the process this year isn't quite the same as last year (or the year before etc).

If SGS do introduce an additional pass mark it is hard to see how they are not in breach of the Admissions Code as they have failed to take all reasonable steps to inform parents prior to 31 October (especially when Wilsons and WCGS both did). As I had read their website, and in particular the FAQs about the SET they have explicitly stated that if you pass the SET then:

"For Sutton Grammar School – your son is eligible to be considered for a place at Sutton Grammar School and you may wish to list this school on your CAF. Your son will then be invited to sit our second stage test to be held on Saturday 16 November 2013 to determine his position in the rank order."

This contrasts with

" For Wilson’s School - your son is eligible to sit the second stage Entrance Examination for Wilson’s School details of which will be sent to you by email. The date for the second stage Entrance Examination will be Wednesday 9 October 2013. The outcome for the second stage entrance examination will be emailed to parents/carers by the end of October (in advance of the deadline for completion of the CAF). Please note that success in the examinations does not mean that a place will be offered."

For both Wilsons and WCGS the "outcome" was an email to say whether your son was or was not eligible to be considered for a place. SGS had met this Admissions Code requirement by using the SET.

It is probably all moot anyway, but I think SGS would be on dodgy grounds not to allow a boy who had passed SET, named SGS and sat on the 16th to go on the waiting list. And in the (unlikely) event that SGS has spaces, and there are boys in this category I think they would have a strong chance at appeal.

I'm not sure this is correct Ladymuck as last year SGS sent out emails after 1st March to those who had passed the eligibility test but not scored highly enough on the second stage test " to be included in the rank order of candidates to be considered". Sutton round candidates to the nearest four marks at the second stage 'cut off' point and those just inside the 'cut off' are then selected by distance. It depends on how many sat the second stage test of course and how confident Sutton are that they will be the grammar school of choice. I wouldn't be surprised if the heads of Sutton, Wallington and Wilson's meet up this year to discuss admissions.

Ladymuck I don't think that everyone who sat the second stage Sutton G test actually makes it onto the waiting list. Last year Sutton still had a two stage test and some children who were of 'selective ability' after stage one were not put on the waiting list after stage 2. I know a child who this happened to so it's not hearsay. I'm not sure what the letter said but effectively it means that there is a cut off mark and if you don't make it then that's that! They may well change it this year but I don't see why they would.

Strictly it is a different process from Wilsons and WCGS where it was possible to have passed the eligibility test, but fail the 2nd stage test. Everyone who sat Sutton on Saturday and had put it on the CAF will be on the final ranked list. Obviously where they are in the ranking will be important in determining whether they get a place or not, and you don't know that until 3 March. But what you also must bear in mind is that there is a lot of movement on the waiting list for these schools too in March and April. To be on the waiting list you must have passed stage 2, and by default anyone who sat stage 2 for Sutton will have passed.

There are 420 boys grammar places across the 3 Sutton schools, and many of the boys will have also sat for at least one of St Olaves, Judd or Tiffins as well as Whitgift and Trinity. 424 passed Wilsons. It is highly probable that most of these have Wilsons as first choice, but if 120 put Sutton, and 120 put WCGS as first choice then Wilsons might not be able to fill its places.... Slim odds I grant you. But it indicates how important "passing" is.

Ladymuck, what do you mean by "everyone who sat Sutton has "passed"? Don't we find that out on March 3rd?

Playground feedback similar - difficult, and timing was an issue.

On the plus side: everyone who has sat it has "passed" and will be included on the ranking, and many of those on the ranking have at least 2 other grammars on their CAF too. This isn't about passing or failing as such - it is all relative to the other candidates, and without exception so far all feedback has been that this was the hardest of the 3.

My DS said SGS test was the most difficult so far. It seems that these schools have really stepped up the difficulty of the English in particular. Also I think the timing of the test didn't help as he has lost a bit of motivation by now. Shame really as SGS is his first choice. It's such a long slog, especially if there are indie tests to sit in January.

How did everyone's DS find Sutton Exam last Saturday?

Hope it went well. Sounds as if it was hard!

Thanks Lady that's great advice. No one in our house has really been up for his one .. But now it's coming into view DS is going to give it a good crack

Good luck to all the DSs who are doing the SGS exam on Saturday!

Wouldn't expect much different from what the other schools did for maths. Sutton has gone more for non fiction in previous years, so think about letter format, balanced argument, persuasive writing.

Good luck!

So Sutton Grammar test on Saturday . Final GS exam for a relieved DS.

Is there any knowledge on feedback , school hinted on the open day that it was an hour long essay and a formal maths paper?