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Original poster

"So-called friend"

84 replies

SanityClause · 02/10/2013 11:59

DD2 is 12, in year 8.

There is a girl in her class who she was good friends with from year 3. They would sometimes fall out, then make up friends, as people do.

However, particularly since they have been in the senior school, things have become quite unpleasant between them.

The girl (X) began to ignore DD, for no apparent reason, for weeks at a time. While this was happening, she would also encourage others in the friendship group to ignore DD.

After a while, she would decide to be friends. She would give her reasons for the falling out to be things like "I'm sorry, I was in a bad mood, and I took it out on you." or "I called you in the corridor, but you didn't answer, so I thought you were ignoring me" (DD had not heard her call.) At first DD was happy to make friends with her, but she soon got tired of the cycle, and stopped wanting to be friends with her. Then X would involve all their other friends and DD would feel very pressurised into making up, only to be subject to the same silent treatment a few weeks later.

As DD became more resolute in not wanting to make up friends again, X started to involve the rest of the class in pressurising DD to be friends with her. At least once, she had the form teacher involved in "peacemaking". (The next time it happened, I emailed the teacher to ask her, politely, to stay out of it, on DD's request.)

X makes things very difficult for DD, when she is ignoring her. She will say nasty things about her to other friends. If DD is chatting to someone, X will call them away, to speak to them "urgently".

It seems like, not content to ostrasize DD herself, she wants to encourage the rest of the girls to do so.

Recently, she has really ramped up the situation, trying to get DD in to trouble. In one practical lesson, DD and her partner were next to X and her partner. They were a bit rowdy, and X told the teacher, who (rightly) told them off. But a couple of days later, X told the teacher that it had happened again, which was untrue. (DD had to go to the teacher to explain - luckily she was believed.)

So.

A couple of days ago, X's mother rang me to say that X had come out of school in tears, because DD had spread a rumour about her. I questioned DD, and she told me that she and three other girls had been joking between the four of them, that one of the four had had sex with X (a silly schoolgirl joke, although, I agree not fair to joke about X who wasn't there - I have spoken to DD about this).

Somehow, the joke spread beyond the four of them. DD did not spread it, and I think possibly it was overheard by someone else, who spread it as a rumour. The rumour was spread over the course of the afternoon, but no one spoke about it at all the following day. So, X had a very unpleasant afternoon.

DD sent a text to X apologising profusely about her part in the situation. X replied to the text demanding that DD go round to tell everyone she had spread the rumour to that it was not true. In fact, DD had not spread the rumour, so had no one to tell. And in any case, as DD pointed out, that would only dredge it up again, and be worse for X.

X has blamed only DD and does not apportion any blame to the other girls in the four. Further, she has told others (including one of the group of four "jokers") that DD's apology is not a proper apology.

So it seems to me that she is now using this as just one further thing to get at DD.

X's mother does not believe DD's version of events, even though X was not there at the time, and therefore could not have known how the rumour started. She was very upset and apalled at the nature of the joking. (Perhaps that was coloured by the fact that it had caused the horrible rumour though, rather than actually being offended by it, though, because I thought the joke quite tame, although not really amusing.)

So, my concern is this. That X will continue to try to ostracize DD from her friends, and make her school life very difficult. DD is low down the social pecking order in the class, anyway, and can't afford to lose friends, as she would find it hard to make new ones.

Should I speak to the school, or is it all too nebulous?

OP posts:
alpinemeadow · 03/10/2013 16:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Shootingatpigeons · 03/10/2013 16:11

This sounds like a typical case of an alpha girl manipulating the group norms to put herself at the centre of things and build up her self esteem, and using the fact that she has some influence over someone to unite others in excluding her. DD had a very similar experience with her childhood friend, and neighbour. Very quickly in Year 7 she spotted the chance to build herself up at my DDs expense making her the butt of cool crowd jokes. She would constantly play on their friendship to keep her close and available to be the butt of her jibes and nastiness "We are so close, we have a love hate relationship" As DD said she knows how to press all my buttons. The rest of the cool crowd would all confide in DD individually (they were all troubled underneath) but they all knew it was not cool to be seen to be friendly. It felt as though having raised DD to care, have respect for others and have empathy made her a target.

Your DD needs to accept they will not be her true friends, this incident must have shown her that trying to be in with them and join in jokes will just get manipulated against her, and she will continue to be a target. She needs to focus on her other friends, ones that will be genuinely supportive.

The school may have some other constructive suggestions but these girls are very clever about keeping the exclusion and bullying under the radar. DDs school were concerned that making it into an issue with her X and her friends would make DD even more of a target and focused on building up her confidence and encouraging her to stay away from the group.

I had the same situation with the mother who that DD managed to dupe into believing that my DD and her were still the best of friends, so would try to share lifts to parties, sports events etc. The games her DD played were pretty obvious to me in the car but I know she was manipulated by all three of her DDs. In fact the only member of the family who has ever acknowledged what went on was the eldest DD who was herself at the bottom of the sisterly power struggle.

Year 9 is the worst for this sort of behaviour, after that they all grow up and start to have less need to be part of a group, and so become less susceptible to this sort of manipulation.

I am sorry this sort of behaviour may be ubiquitous in groups of girls but it is exclusion and bullying, and girls raised with the right values don't do it. I reassured my DD that she would not have to experience a situation like this ever again, unless she ended up in a woman's prison.....

keepsmiling12345 · 03/10/2013 14:14

I did not say your DD was a bully. Please don't accuse me of things I haven't done. I voiced my opinion that you appeared to be seeing your DD's behaviour as a lot less serious than X's and I was suggesting you approach the head about the dysfunctional relationship rather than who did what to whom.

Original poster
SanityClause · 03/10/2013 09:16

I have never really spoken to the school about the issue before, although I did once send an email (April 2013) to the form tutor who had tried to help to reconcile the girls in the past. I do still have that email on my system, so I can show that it didn't all just start recently.

X's mother is a nice person, and has always said she is really happy for DD and X to be friends, and what a lovely friend DD is to X. More recently, I have just kept my mouth shut, as I hoped that with our support, DD would be able to get to a position where X was just one of her group of friends, rather than being a "best" friend, and so X wouldn't have such a hold on her.

Looking back, that was probably naive - X was never going to let that happen, as then she would have to find someone else to take her emotions out on.

Also, the whole situation has grown up so slowly. They were very good friends in junior school. It is only really the second half of year 6 and then year 7 and the start of year 8 that the real nastiness has happened. And of course, it seems like just an extension of the junior school days, where they would fall out every now and then.

Looking back, I can see how it progressed.

In year 6, X's mother was very unwell and needed an operation. Also, her grandmother, who lives close by to them was also unwell. So, X was going through a very difficult time, and she took that out on DD. Now, at the time, DD and I spoke about it, and she decided to cut her some slack, considering what a rubbish time she was having.

But I think the habit of taking out her emotions on my DD started then.

DD does have other really close friends; she is not entirely on her own if X excludes her. But she doesn't really involve them in the X situation, as the girls all just think it is X and DD falling out - they don't see it as something X is doing to DD.

OP posts:
alpinemeadow · 03/10/2013 07:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
SanityClause · 02/10/2013 22:43

Obviously, I wasn't there, slipshod, but those are the details DD has presented to me.

Incidentally, AFAIK, none of the other parents have been contacted, and none of the other girls have been asked to apologise. DD apologised off her own bat, as she was truly sorry for the upset she had inadvertently caused.

OP posts:
Slipshodsibyl · 02/10/2013 22:36

As the op describes it, her daughter didn't actually make the comment. Neither did she repeat it. The silly conversation centred more on a girl present in the group. If this is what happened, I don't see that op's daughter has done anything unpleasant and has unfortunately been dragged in since she was present at the time and is a convenient person to blame. If her report is accurate, I think she might well be the victim.

Johnny5needsinput · 02/10/2013 20:04

I think the other girl is not blameless but neither is your dd.

I know how I would feel if a rumour that my dd was having sex with another girl in her class was going round.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 02/10/2013 19:58

Yeah, I would most probably email or ask for a call from the form teacher to talk over this whole thing - primary schools friendships which peter out at secondary can be difficult, and I think you're right that school need to be aware of the tensions here.

You also might get to hear what they see/think about it all, as well, which can be reassuring.

Sonnet · 02/10/2013 19:42

Ixqic has it perfectly correcting. Do as she suggests

Original poster
SanityClause · 02/10/2013 19:26

Fair point Original, I will put that to her.

And I will go to the school, because whether DD is being bullied or whether it is a bit of each, I think it can only be good for DD if the school is made aware.

OP posts:
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 02/10/2013 19:20

I don't think either of them are bullies - I think they have a difficult relationship and both have made mistakes. I think you're a bit more ready to see a problem with X's than you are your dd's, though.

And yes, I know you've told her she shouldn't do 'tame jokes' about people who aren't there, however innocuous she may think they are. But she should have a think about how she would feel, not if the rumour was about her, but simply if X was talking to three of her (dd's) friends saying 'ha ha, you had sex with SanityClause's DD', and they were all finding it highly amusing.

Original poster
SanityClause · 02/10/2013 18:46

Well, actually, Alien, I have taken DDs part in the rumour situation very seriously.

But I have said that she didn't consider what they were saying to be nasty, in any way. She wouldn't have minded if she herself had been the butt of the joke. I wish she had - I imagine she'd be over it by now, like her friend Y.

I don't know if someone overheard them joking. Maybe one of the group shared the joke with someone else in the class, and it spread from there.

However it happened, DD did not intend for the rumour to be spread. She has been appalled at the fallout. She has apologised profusely. We have discussed with X's mother how she would like it handled with the school, and taken her preference on board.

But clearly, my DD is a bully, and not X.

OP posts:
keepsmiling12345 · 02/10/2013 18:20

I agree completely with theoriginalsteamingnit's posts and think that OP is treating her DD's behaviour as jokey and yet believes X's behaviour is worse. I would suggest you approach the head of year about what is clearly a dysfunctional relationship and seek her advice about how to help the girls manage this. But i think it is essential that OP acknowledges that your DD's behaviour with this recent incident is clearly part of the problem.

ixqic · 02/10/2013 17:07

i meant to suggest that you are in the meeting with the HOY/pastoral manager so that everyone is clear on what happened and to give her moral support. if you are the type, resist the urge to speak for her. she is big girl now and has to get the experience of speaking for herself.

ixqic · 02/10/2013 17:04

I have only read the first 2 responses so I will probably repeat stuff.

this is classic girl bullying. Ostracizing and friendship circle which DD has been perceptive in her own right to identify.

the manipulation of the group against her, the lumping of all the blame on her. it is scapegoating by someone has learned very well from adults around them how to bring shame and submission to her authority.

I think dd hasn't quite accepted that she is supposed to be subservient and X is trying to impose her will upon her.

DD needs a meeting with the Pastoral manager/Head of Year and speak openly, frankly and in depth about the whole carry on. A good pastoral manager has seen and heard it all before and will be able to put other parts into the picture from other interactions around school.

DD needs to find other things to occupy her time. After school activities away from them and friends how have different interests from them. There are loads of different types of activities she can pursue to get her into friendships with kids who actually do stuff with each other rather than bitch.

Good luck with it all.

Original poster
SanityClause · 02/10/2013 16:56

When DD started in the senior school, she had one friend in the class - X. I tried to encourage her to make new friends, as I was concerned that if they fell out (and they had a history of falling out, she would be stuck. So, DD made new friends, and of course X was part of that friendship group.

Then X started her nastiness, and now it is is obviously a bit difficult within the group, because the other girls can't easily socialise with both DD and X at the same time, as they could in the past.

So no, DD is not trying to take X's friends away. They are her friends, too.

OP posts:
Original poster
SanityClause · 02/10/2013 16:48

Okay, the "joke" was this.

They had their forms for the HPV jab. One of the FAQ was "Is it okay to have the jab, if you have already had sex?" The answer was, "Yes".

So, they said to one of the four (Y), "Oh, it's okay, Y, you can still have the jab!" So the bantering continued, and one of them suggested that the person Y had had sex with was X. Remember, all the others are friends with X. DD was not the one who brought up X's name.

I asked her afterwards, what if it was your name that was said. She said she wouldn't care, because it was funny and lighthearted.

Of course, she would have cared about the rumours, but not about the joking, that then led to the rumours.

I have discussed with her that joking about someone who wasn't there was not right. I think I may have mentioned that, earlier?

OP posts:
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 02/10/2013 16:32

If X knows that DD doesn't like her any more, she is obviously going to be angrier with her about the conversation, I would think.

You're worried X will turn DD's friends against her... but who is talking to whose friends here?

PlatinumStart · 02/10/2013 16:31

I'm afraid I cannot agree that stating that someone you don't like and are not friends with had sex with someone, when this is simply not true is a joke. Frankly it's unkind and smacks of bullying.

I would definitely speak with the school but be prepared to hear that this is very much a case of six too one...

Original poster
SanityClause · 02/10/2013 16:19

X posted with your second post.

The other three girls are all X's friends. DD did not start the joking. I have spoken to her very strongly about talking about others behind their backs. I do take that very seriously, believe me.

DD has apologised profusely for inadvertently starting the rumour. I am not trying to minimise that.

However, X has not apportioned any blame to the other three, only to DD.

OP posts:
Original poster
SanityClause · 02/10/2013 16:12

Original, all the others are still X's friends. I think part of the reason X is choosing to make DD the scapegoat, is because it means not falling out with the others.

Remember the "joke" was that one of the four had had sex with X. This girl would have been upset by the rumours just as much as X.

I asked X's mother whether she wanted us to contact the school. She said not at the moment. And, of course, she could contact the school herself, if she thought some kind of announcement by a staff member or my DD would be useful.

OP posts:
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 02/10/2013 16:06

And also, I do think that sitting around saying untrue things about someone with whom you have resolved not to be friends is not just tame joking... it might be different if you were all sitting around discussing someone you all liked, and who you knew would find it amusing, but that's not quite the case, is it?

I think you can see this when it's X doing it - one of your concerns is that X will 'say nasty things about dd' to her friends, and gang up on her. But I think you're a bit less willing to see how your own dd's behaviour might look awfully like the same thing.

I'm not trying to have a dig for the sake of it, or be a one-woman nest of vipers, but I do think that this is very easy to see as not tame joking, or amusing, if you are on the other end of it.

Suppose dd came home after breaking friends with X, and said that X had been sitting around loudly talking about dd having had sex with someone she hadn't?

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 02/10/2013 16:02

I guess if I was X's mum, I'd want the girls who started it to be nice (which your dd was, in texting her) first, and second, to make it clear and put it out there that it was a silly joke and not true. At the moment, I think their silence is probably taken as confirmation by others, unfortunately.

Even if dd and friends had no part in the active spreading of the rumour, it did start because of their conversation (which must have been either quite loud or quite unguarded, to have given rise to such a pervasive rumour), and as such, if I were X's mum, I would probably be thinking that it was their responsibility to do everything in their power to set the record straight.

I don't think it's for them to say 'oh, that will just make it worse', tbh. That sounds just a little bit like an easy way out... and I suspect X and her mum are blaming dd more because she used to be X's friend, so it is more natural to focus on what she did.

Original poster
SanityClause · 02/10/2013 15:55

I absolutely agree Original that it was wrong to joke about someone who wasn't there. I have spoken to DD about it. I did ask her, though, how she would have felt if the joke (not the rumour) had been about her, and she said it would have been fine. It was just some silliness between the four of them.

The joke was "quite tame"; as a rumour, spread round the class, it was horrible. I am absolutely not trying to minimise what happened to X. In fact, DD was really upset that that had happened to anyone. (Part of the reason X is blaming her, I think, is because DD was so upset that it had happened.)

The point about being unable to call it back was that she hadn't spread it in the first place.

If your daughter was X, what would you want to happen about the rumour? Would you think it useful for the four girls, or a teacher to talk about it, afterwards? X's mother thought "least said, soonest mended", but, of course if it persisted, I am sure a different tack would have to be taken.

OP posts: