What are these CAT tests

Moomin I suspect that some if the skills needed art and science and certainly art and engineering over lap a great deal.
DD1 and I both have arty edges, DD1 is doing art at GCSE.

But it's most obvious of all when you see DH and my engineer DDad talking. They'll describe technical things to each other that are basically NVR problems from hell without the diagrams. It's quite mind boggling because they are quite obviously and calmly seeing the same thing in
their heads.

I'm ok if they draw it, but I can't just visualise things in 3D. Your artistic DD probably can.

Most schools do them early in year 7, and then later they are factored in as one of the things determining predicted grades. Ours always say, they will be doing them, they will need a pencil and do not need to prepare, and that's the end of that.

Then those, with SATS, FIsher family thingy, performance so far etc, all contribute to what their predicted grades will be in year 10.

Quantitative measures ability with numbers, on the paper my year 7s sat they were looking at sequences and how to get from one number to another using plus,minus,times or divide

Eg 2 4 6 8 ? And 2>4 5>10 4-->?

So more important than verbal really, but a low mark in VR could be a concern. 90-110 is 'average' 85-89 'low average', 111-115 'high average' and numbers outside that above or below average. Bare in mind though that the most accurate testing is only 95% accurate, so one in 20 results are anomalous.

Not really 'innate' intelligence, but more potential ability. So many factors affect academic ability it will sometimes change over time. I had a dyslexic student whose NVR reduced year on year, I'm sure that as his confidence diminished his ability to perform on the test reduced. The scores are standardised age scores, so they are adjusted to compare performance against other children of the same age. Two students with the same answers will get different scores if they are born in different months.

Star, that is really interesting about NVR.

DD got a massively higher mark in NVR than anything else (130ish). I would say she is okay academically but no genius (handful of As but mostly Bs at GCSE even with a decent amount of effort) but she loathes and struggles with science and maths. She needed intensive tuition from me to scrape her B in maths and really lacked confidence.

Her talent is really Art and Design and all things creative. I reckon she would be a great architect but probably lacks the maths skills.

Does anyone know what the Quantative paper measures? My understanding is that there are 3 papers - VR, NonVR and Quant. My DD got a really high mark in quant but it wasn't really explained and the teacher kept harping on referring to her less high mark in VR. I SO want Quant to be something super impt but it feels like the poor relation!

Also, I thought that the CAT results, because they measure "innate intelligence" were relatively fixed but I saw my dd's results from twice in Y4 (her school do them twice a year) and they were honestly like a completely different child - each paper a good 10-15 points different from the previous time.

NVR I think flags up good scientists, DH, Me and DD1 are all very good at them and DH and me have science degrees and DD1 want's one.

I think NVR also needs a certain degree of confidence, you work through the puzzle and then they give you 4 answers to make you doubt your conviction.

I think good scientist and mathematicians too are just a bit arrogant, they see no reason why they shouldn't understand things.

Lots of dyslexics do read well. I don't rely entirely on CAT data, but it is useful as a starting point when getting to grips with a new year group. Primary school data is passed on, reading tests done and subject staff and TAs will flag up concerns.

We are using CAT 4 which also has a spatial reasoning element.

DD's writing atrocious, punctuation worse, spelling depends whether she's trying or not...reads very, very well, so clearly not dyslexic, but you wouldn't know. I did think about getting her screened for dyspraxia, but decided in the end that, if she wasn't going to get extra time in the exams for it, it probably wouldn't be helpful for her to have a label to "blame" stuff on.

Grants, verbal reasoning called that cos it's all comprehending words...except it isn't always! Stuff like, you get a sequence of letters in pairs and have to predict the next pair, or maybe find a word hidden in a sentence, or break/make codes (DD hated codes, especially up against a time limit, but her scores overall were usually very good!). Sometimes you get a question that complex verbally, but the answer's in numbers too. It's a weird paper, but there are lots of places to practice online/Youtube: I'm not sure I'd bother in Y7 though, as I agree that attitude is much more important than the scores themselves.

thanks kitchendiner but he definately has dyslexia, already screened etc in primary school

I too would ask for caution when screening for dyslexia. My dyslexic DS got about 110 on his VR (which was higher than Non Verbal score). His teacher told me didn't indicate dyslexia - his actual verbal IQ (involving no reading) tested by a professional was 30 points higher (top 1%).

CATs are multi choice,
I believe they are the sort of exam that's clearly mark one square and the sheets are then marked by scanning into a computer.

No need to write anything other than your name.

Meant to add ds1 in year 7 and dyslexic, bright, has issues with taking verbal and turning it into written work (cant't process). He can read very well, understands everything, can verbally explain everything well, just can't get it down on paper, his writing is (I hate to say this) dreadful, he is learning to type. He takes notes, does mind maps etc. Fab at maths and loves it.

Daft question, is a verbal reasoning one done out loud? I don't get it, help!!

The CAT wasn't a good grade predictor for my DS: it failed to factor in the fact that he is bone idle. Similarly my friend's daughter got an average of about 110 and came away with 12A* at GCSE.

I am very interested in the Non Verbal element of the test because all three of mine have got 130 or so on it. Obviously they would get an A* in Tetris or something but how does that relate to having a talent for something in real life? Teachers have muttered vague things about having an aptitude for maths but this is not actually the case for my kids. I have suggested to DD she would probably be a great pattern cutter if she went into fashion but she wasn't particularly enthused by that idea.

Until - iOs7's spell checking is a bit wobbly.

Can I please council caution in screening for dyslexia using VR/NVR.

I'm sure it does flag up some DCs with poor reading and comprehension skills, but it's very likely to miss brighter dyslexics.

DD1(15) didn't learn to read competently untill she was 11and out loud her reading is dreadful. Her comprehension isn't! Her Y9 VR/NVR were 123/131, her Y7 ones were very similar. Yes there's a difference, but not one that I think any one would notice.

However, her writing and spelling would get scowled at in Y5 and she qualifies for 25% extra time in exams.

I've just done these with year 7 (secondary teacher) I used them in conjunction with SATS and reading test scores to set pupils.

They don't help with value added - we are measured entirely against SAT results. I look for discrepancy between the non-verbal and verbal score and screen for dyslexia pupils who have a significantly lower verbal score. They can flag up particular issues with number and give evidence for language issues or moderate learning difficulties. No test is completely accurate, but they are standardised and have a high degree of validity - 95% of results are accurate (so 1 in 20 aren't). I would say they are much more accurate than SATs - primaries are under enormous pressure to get good SATS pupils spend a huge amount of time being prepared for them. There is lots of anecdotal evidence that children are helped during the actual tests on occasion. Reports are produced to predict GCSE results though these are generally ignored because we are measured against KS2 SAT results regardless. If KS2 SATs are missing (which is v.rare) CATs will be used as a benchmark.

I'm sure parents are entitled to have CATs results if they ask. We don't routinely share the information but I will discuss with any interested parent.

They would have done them in year 4 too.

3 batteries of tests. All short in time (8 mins, 12 mins, think the longest is 14 mins)

1st is verbal reasoning.
What word is missing from a sentence?
What word relates to another word in the same way that the example does.
Which word is the odd one out of a selection?

2nd is number
Which number comes next in a sequence?
Which answer can you make using the numbers and the operations given?
Can't remember the third.

3rd which is non verbal
Lots of different shapes.
Which shape carries on the pattern given?
What would a piece of paper look like once opened up if it was folded and a hole punched in it in the place(s) in the question?
And again, I can't remember the third one.

They are so different to what we teach that they are not possible to prepare the children for them.

Yes to attitude making a difference. The children fill their answers in on a lottery style sheet that is sent away for marking. It is not unknown for children with behaviour issues or confidence issues to just fill in the boxes at random.

I think they do another set of similar tests in Y10. Of course these tests can only look at intelligence and aptitude.A child's attitude can scupper all that!

My son was predicted all A* after his CATs in y7. He is now in y11 and I will be eating my hat (albeit happily) if those predictions are proved right.

Ds predicted C's across the board at years 7, 9 and 11. Has 1A, 5A's and 5B's, plus AS levels 4xA and predicted 4xA (now). Many Teachers are still shocked at this summers results. He has issues (not dyslexia) but he is way beyond dedicated and committed in how hard he works. He has worked very hard and he will get where he wants to be and random testing will not stand in his way. In fact he has enjoyed the lack of pressure and his ability to confound his predictions ( his regular tutors have always predicted he will do well).

Yes, I don't think it's possible to over-perform but it is clearly possible to under-perform.