Is it usual to need a grade A GCSE to do A level maths now?

Glad it's going smoothly for you. Is he coping well with the workload of his other subjects on top of this?

DD1 just finished first week in AS maths. I was more nervous than her (mid A grade GCSE) but she had been finding it easy (although still making careless mistakes). Bet she wont be saying that in a few weeks. More maths homework than any of her other subjects.
It seems they are going over GCSE stuff at the moment, although the topics are in the OCR C1/C2 text book.
As they are set for maths, she seems to be in a group going at quite a slow pace. All told that anyone struggling this week should seriouly consider dropping subject. They will be tested at half term, and sets re-jigged if necessary. She is slightly worried that they may be going so slowly that they will not cover enough of the syllabus to give her the chance of a decent grade.

I was appalled by my first applied maths A level lesson (it wasn't even the further maths lesson, it was the normal maths lesson). We did permutations and combinations and it was with a teacher we hadn't had since the first year, who was really, um, brusque and impatient and it was a nightmare. Some people were in tears afterwards, I wasn't that far gone but I was not happy.

Within a week we all loved her. She was a genius teacher. Very funny. But that first learning curve week was not good. Everyone in that class did really well. But it took a week to get to grips with the brave new world of A level. Further maths was actually easier because we started with set theory in pure and collisions in applied (I know the topic wasn't officially called that but you know what I mean - the snooker ball type questions) and they were just easier topics.

I think the pace was part of the problem. DD was shocked by it :)

I think that it is less likely to happen at that age. If it hasn't clicked by 16 yrs I wouldn't start a fast paced course, with all those who do get it, in the hope that it might.

Do some children after struggling for a few days, not then begin to click and get into it? I know that I did with maths, without being what you would call a 'natural mathematicican'.

DD says 1 of her friends is struggling already after 2 days - got a B in maths and additional science and changed her options to do maths and physics. Hopefully she will swap back quickly to her original choices if she is not coping.

Unfortunately some students don't seem to get that they aren't coping, despite scoring poorly on home works and getting very little on tests. If it is suggested that they leave, in come the parents demanding that their child is allowed to remain on the course even though it is blindingly obvious that it is unsuitable. And then the Head of Sixth Form takes their side and you're stuck with them.

That one wanted to be an engineer too.

I think that they would have been much better to let him start and then, like my son, he would have realised he couldn't cope. The pace was fast- DS realised he rest were coping and he certainly wasn't- and that was only the first week!

I hadn't thought about this before, but maybe this is a problem with having the same school for sixth form: you don't necessarily get to discuss all the possibilities, and a school that has been making decisions for you since you were a small boy of 11 might be a bit stuck in that pattern of thinking.

Round our way it's all sixth form colleges, and dd and her friends have been making several visits to each of the potential colleges= plenty of time to discuss all possible scenarios and potential problems, and plenty of time to pull back if answers were not satisfactory. "What happens if I don't achieve x at GCSE" seemed to be a question that came up a lot. It did mean they had to be more organised from the start, but also, now I think of it, gave them more clout; it wasn't just the school making choices, the students were making choices too.

DD1 started 6th form yesterday studying maths and sciences. She is a high A grade student (not an A) but will work very hard. She took her maths at the end of year 10 and during year 11 has been doing algebra etc. at school to bridge the gap to A level. She was shocked at the fast pace of the lessons yesterday (particularly in chemistry). She coped fine but said others were struggling on the first day. She then came home and had over 2 hours homework to do....and that is just on day 1. I do think that a normal 16 year old will struggle to do an extra A level - a couple at DD's school do an extra one but they are straight A students and normally doing further maths.
In Op's situation I do think it is unfortunate that the school won't allow her DS to try maths for a couple of weeks. At DD's school, some are being allowed to do an extra subject just for the first few weeks with a view to dropping one when they have made a decision which one is not for them (assuming their extra subject fits into the 5 option blocks - so effectively the extra lessons are when they would have self-study time).
OP - have you asked school whether this would be a possibility? This way, school and your son could decide whether maths AS level is a reachable goal or whether it is too difficult.

There's no suggestion that the OP's DS has SEN though, is there?

And before you ask, I have a 16yo who is now leaving school after a disastrous 5 years involving constant bad health and consequent problems with school attendance: her GCSE record looks very different from what we might reasonably have expected from her.

Though she is only just recovering from bad anxiety issues, I still think it is essential that she should conduct her own interviews with college etc and do her own research about possible career options. It is what all her peers are doing and what colleges expect and it is a skill that she needs to practise well in advance of her university interviews.

Admissions officers will be looking for commitment and independence: "I always assumed I'd be doing this because my dad did" really does not cut it on a UCAS application. And admissions tutors are very good at wangling any lack of personal commitment out of students in interview.

There is nothing wrong with the OP's wish to help her son: she sounds a great and caring parent. But some of us are trying to point out that her help might be more effective if done in a slightly different way.

"its another to stare in the face of a possibility that your DC will not follow you in higher education and perceive that he will never have the same, let alone better standard of living."

Hismum4now, the possibility facing the OP is not that her son will have to renounce on every single type of HE, merely that he might have to choose something different from his father and elder brother. Or alternatively, revise his GCSE maths to get them up to scratch.

We're not talking a lifetime in the gutter, just the possibility that he might have to sit down and make active choices rather than simply follow the family tradition.

My ds is a couple of years younger and I would say unlikely to replicate my own academic career. "stare in the fact" makes it sound like he is facing a prison sentence or something. All I thought it meant was that he would have to make his own practical choices for the best possible outcome.

"Ultimately people make choices which reflect their values. "

But surely not for our nearly-adult children?

I am surprised that this thread has rumbled on for so long.
My DS3 was in the same position, he got a B at GCSE and decided to take it at AS level. He was completely out of his depth in the very first lesson where apparently they just did 'a bit if a warm up' and discussed the syllabus. He saw the teacher afterwards, who was supportive but realistic, he came back and discussed it with us and decided to change subjects.
DS1 had an A at GCSE and he got an A at A'level and did a Science subject at university. He didn't struggle. I wouldn't have seen the point in telling DS3 that he must do it, have tutors, workbooks etc or say that the school had let him down. He was at the same school as his brother.
He was the one to make the decision . I agree with longingforsomesleep.
Her DS is the one to do it, not her DS heavily backed by mum. Mum won't be at university with him- best to learn to cope without her now.

Cory, you might be right, there are so many scenarios. We don't really know all the circumstances and I don't think OP ever revealed her DS's grades in other subjects. Obviously with the same teaching some other DC did better in her son's school. I understand where you and other professionals come from.

All I said was that I understand why OP is upset.
The picture your paint is exactly the one that made me think the OPs DS needs help. But then this is only my personal perspective shaped by my experience of having DC with SEN. There are many reasons why things don't work out as expected. Young people mature at different pace and learn to cope via different pathways. I see secondary education as the time to give DS every opportunity to develop and flourish in a protective environment if needed. As a parent I can't accept that any DC should be left behind and I wouldn't demand that from any mother. It is one thing to argue generally that DC will succeed on their own, its another to stare in the face of a possibility that your DC will not follow you in higher education and perceive that he will never have the same, let alone better standard of living. It is upsetting and Jella is fighting back. Ultimately people make choices which reflect their values.
[I am not entering the discussion about how rewarding non university careers are, this is for another thread]

His4mum, you don't think the scenario might be slightly different?

Something like: two university educated parents who have a gift for a certain subject and have conducted their own studies with the usual level of independence expect their son to be exactly like them. And when he is not, they panic and start blaming everybody around them.

What many of us do find hard to understand is that the only talk here is of the kind of pushy parent you have to be. What about the kind of student? The son is 16. Nearly grown up. And yet there is no talk of him organising his studies or discussing matters with prospective colleges. He may need tutoring in particular areas, but he really shouldn't need somebody to be making his college appointments for him and thinking through his study plan.

Surely it doesn't take an in depth knowledge of "the tricks of the system" for a big lad to have talked to his school and surrounding colleges well in advance of exams about what kind of demands the maths A-level is going to pose and to have acquired a collection of study guides long before this stage?

I may seem to be harping on this, but then I am a university lecturer and I do see how desperately students flounder if they arrive at university without basic experience in sorting out their workload and making practical arrangements.

I am also university educated. And I don't think that means both my children will be able to go to university as a matter of course: if they do, it will depend on their ability and their commitment and their hard work.

I'm not sure it changed that much. Some children will always have to put in more effort to get the same grades in a subject than others do. Those subjects will be different for different chikdren. having university educated parents just means you have better resources behind you to help you put that effort in.

Jella, if your ds is finding some gaps in his knowledge for C1, there is a book called Bridging GCSE and A Level Maths which goes through topics refreshing what should be known from GCSE and the first steps to AS. It is very well laid out.

I was wondering why this thread sparks such emotion and it crossed my mind that the expectations that Jella forcefully articulates are totally normal.

Two uni educated parents see their reasonably able DS to school and expect him back with grades that would allow him to continue education, go to uni for a career of his choice, just like they and their elder DSs did in their times. Suddenly they realize that something changed and to stay on this track they need a PhD in pushy parenting, to know all the tricks of the system, the skills to teach DS Maths or to afford tutoring. I understand why Jella is shocked and upset.

I agree with everything cory said in that post.

I'm the last person who would put a limit on anybody's maths. I found my love of maths once I'd left school after years of thinking I was rubbish at it. Teaching maths is one of the things I miss most about teaching and I firmly believe that children hear too many messages about 'having a maths limit' and it being OK to not be very good at maths that they don't hear about other subjects. I've already disagreed on this thread with people who've said that.

The problem is not 'can he do maths A level', it's whether or not he can do it in 2 years, whilst studying 4 other subjects from the starting point he's at now. Nothing in your post about the textbook has changed my opinion that this may be too big an ask. In fact, it suggests he has bigger problems with maths than I imagined he might.

You may do better for your son if you listen to the advice of some of the 'naysayers' like noblegiraffe, rather than ignoring them because they don't agree with you.

If you want him to learn at home, why aren't you getting a Maths Tutor? The reason the book isn't 'thick' enough is because it isn't a self-study guide. You may be brilliant at Maths but if you're not a teacher then you're not necessarily going to be very good at teaching...

Exactly Cory. I think by the time kids get to sixth form it's really down to them. Yes, they could perhaps get better grades if their parents help them - especially to the extent the OP proposes. But what good does that really do them in the long run? If it gets them onto a course or into a job they want but can't cope with because they've never learnt to study independently and manage their own lives?

I'm all for discussing with my kids what they are doing at school, offering advice when asked or lending a sympathetic ear. But the sixth form is all about developing independent learning; not being spoon fed by mum.

I don't think what most posters are saying, OP, is "oooh no, maths A-level, can't be done, forlorn hope".

What they are saying is that if it is to work at this level your ds needs to able to think more independently and work out what to do rather than just do what you tell him.

At the moment you are still looking for solutions which mean you or the textbook writer will do most of the thinking and then present it to him in a neat packet. Just like you make his telephone calls for him and speak to the tutors on his behalf.

If he is not ready for this level yet, then going back and consolidating the basics does seem like a good idea.

" However the method you use to teach him by rules has the same problem as the earlier teaching you consider poor. "

My elder's just got 97% UMS at AS, having done similarly at GCSE and FSQM. She's not particularly interested in the subject and isn't taking it forward to A2. However, she's clearly good enough to do extremely well at this level. She reports that her class was filled with people who demanded of the teacher short cuts, rules, mnemonics and methods for question spotting, because they either didn't want to or couldn't actually get to the point of understanding. Their results were mediocre.

The OP will find the same problem: you simply cannot do well in AS maths (and arguably you can't at GCSE) today by treating it mechanistically. You could a generation ago: I'm pretty sure that my A Level in the early eighties was done in large part by rote. But today the questions are wider-ranging and require synthesis of topics from across the syllabus in order to secure the marks that distinguish the higher grades. Without understanding, you're not going to better than a middling grade. And a candidate who wants mnemonics, short cuts and a reminded to press the shift key on their calculator is going to struggle with that.