Is it usual to need a grade A GCSE to do A level maths now?

Maths A level is hard. DD got a high B at GCSE and managed to get up to a C at AS level with some outside help but only in one paper the other was a U so an overall E.

Our school decided to only allow the A and A* pupils A level maths from then on as many struggled and bombed at AS level.

Yes, absolutely, cumfy. Universities now complain that a-level maths isn't good enough preparation for maths-heavy degree courses, but don't put Further Maths on their entry requirements to solve the problem because not enough sixth forms offer it. But really, if you want to do a maths-heavy degree, you really should be choosing Further Maths A-level.

Just read noblegiraffe, so maybe you really would benefit from Further maths if material has been shifted from standard into further syllabus.

Twas the same back in 1982.

C (the old B) was not sufficient at O-level.

Clearly you don't need Further maths A-level to do engineering, however, the 1st year maths at uni will be a great deal easier.

This is a bit off topic, but if anyone's kids or pupils are struggling with algebra, can I recommend the dragonbox app. There are too versions, one for 6 year olds and one for 12 years +. It teaches algebra in such a simple, logical way (while looking like it's just a game) that even my 6 year old can manage a 42 step algebra problem with no real difficulty. He's not a maths genius - it's just a very, very clever game / app. I guarantee that pretty much every 16 year old will learn to do algebra without any difficulty whatsoever if they spend 4 hours playing this game. At £6, it's unbelievable good value for money compared to the cost of a private tutor.

Yes, it's entirely possible that he might have physics in the morning and maths in the afternoon (for example). With January modules gone it's a real squeeze fitting them all in.

And travelling to and staying over night may not be possible with the timetable of his other exams - make sure you check that first.

January modules have been scrapped, your DS will need to sit both C1 and C2 and whatever applied module you pick in May/June. Along with his other 4 AS's worth of exams. Gove again, it's a nightmare.

There are Free Standing Maths Qualifications or Further Maths GCSE, which are designed to bridge the gap to A-level. In my dreamworld, students who sit early and get an A in Y10 could do Further maths in Y11. Those who get an A in Y11 proceed automatically to A-level. Students who get an A or maybe a B in Y11 but want to keep up their maths and don't feel ready for A-level could sit a FSMQ in Y12, and then maybe AS maths in Y13.

Actually the additional maths which many private schools do in year 11 is not a GCSE, it's a GCE. A level above GCSE and gives a good grounding fr A level ( in my kids experience)

noble how would that work for students wanting to do gcse additional maths? (Or am I showing my age and that has been scrapped as a subject?)

Is there an equivalent of further maths at GCSE? If there is such a gap, it seems like a shame there isn't something that maths-y pupils could do during their GCSE years to help prepare themselves.

Doing stats in Y11 is an even worse start to A-level than maths as they have then had a year to forget their algebra. Doing C1 in Y11 is also not good because stats show kids do worse in it than in Y12. Getting GCSE out of the way early is fine for those kids who get an A in it in Y10, they should then spend Y11 doing an additional maths GCSE (not stats). Those who don't get an A in Y10 should do the GCSE again to get an A*

That said, Gove is totally against early entry so I'm not sure that sitting a GCSE at any time other than the end of Y11 will be allowed in future.

It really annoys me that A level maths is such a step up from GCSE but some schools (ours anyway) insist on top set maths taking it early. DS1 took it at the end of year 10 and got an A. Didn't want to start AS maths straightaway so did GCSE statistics in year 11 (big mistake we now know) then started on A level maths in year 12. Despite several resits he has ended up with a D. He was on course for a C but really messed up C4.

DS2 got an A for GCSE maths at the start of year 10. I never felt he had fully consolidated his GCSE but was made to start AS C1 during year 10. He got an E for it. He resat it with his GCSEs and got a C. He got 10 A*/A grades at GCSE and probably did more revision for C1 than he did for all his other GCSEs put together.

The school's argument is that, because A level maths is such a step up, getting the GCSE out of the way early allows students to spend longer on the A level. That's fine in theory - but NOT if they haven't really had time to consolidate their understanding of maths at GCSE level. And for some students (DS1 in particular) resits don't work - he managed to get lower marks every time he resat a module.

It's been quite demoralising for DS2 to get such grades in everything else but be struggling with maths.

Ironically I was only persuaded into maths by school because I got B in O level French (which I had wanted to take). School were quite right in my case, it must be said! I love studying languages but sadly have no natural aptitude for them

No, maths A-level is easier than it used to be. In 2005 a reasonable amount of the content (can't remember what proportion) was removed and put into Further Maths. When they changed it with Curriculum 2000, it was seen to be very difficult (not sure how that compared to previous versions) and uptake plummeted. As we need a reasonable amount of mathematically literate students, they made it easier and uptake rose.
A big problem with maths a-level is that GCSE simply isn't good preparation for it. It may have been more difficult back in the O-level days, but probably fewer people took it and they would have been better prepared for it.

This isn't really relevant to the discussion, but just out of curiosity, is maths A level harder than it used to be?

I did maths back in the 80s - old enough to have done O levels before A levels - and I would have said it was considerably easier than English lit A level back then . . . ?

The 'defeatist attitude' in this case at least is borne from many years of experience of it not working. The boy that I mentioned earlier wasted an entire year of his education on unsuitable subjects. Like in your case, the teachers advised again and again against it, but both he and his parents thought they knew best and carried on. I helped him as best I could. Trust me, there was no joy when we were proved right, he got a U and had to start his A-levels again.
And that same story has played out too many times to be sunnily optimistic.

Jella - if maths is just a matter of practice, why did you not ensure your son did enough practice to secure A/A at GCSE? Was his B a surprise? If he was working at a level A/A throughout the year and his exam was a blip then he should be OK. I hope you don't mind me asking, but if a B is what he was being predicted throughout the year, and you are now prepared to be so hands on, why didn't you step in sooner?

I think it is asking for trouble to embark on A level maths without having a really solid grounding in GCSE.

Re drop outs with maths being hard - my most recent class started with 22 in Y12, we lost a couple in the first few weeks, another after the Jan module and a few more at the end of AS. A couple switched option blocks, another couple had to resit Y12, anyway I ended up with 9 in Y13. So yes, there might be room.
As for which modules to sit first, if you want DS to have the possibility of joining in Y13, the best advice would be to do whatever the school do.

A query - I think if you want to enter as an independent candidate, you have to do it through a registered exam centre (he can't sit the exam at home!). So would you be wanting him to sit the exam at his current school? In which case you would need to let the school know well in advance of exam entry deadlines of your plans.

Not all schools require maths to do physics now, as I believe that they removed a lot of the maths content from physics a few years ago. Doing maths still is an advantage, however, especially if you sit Mechanics in maths as there is a similar module in Physics meaning a lot of the work is duplicated.

Suggesting that only people with innate ability and not simply general academic ability can succeed in maths is a major problem for STEM recruitment. Biology also came up as one of the hardest subjects but I've never heard of anyone suggesting you need an innate ability in Biology to study it, just general intelligence and a lot of hard work.

can he do an engineering diploma? which are equivalent to a levels?
now there's an alternative?