Is it usual to need a grade A GCSE to do A level maths now?

Felt the need to reply after months of agonising whether to try and dissuade DD1 from taking AS maths with a mid-A GCSE grade (early sitting).

We did the rounds of 7 sixth forms, the prospectus for 2 stated that B from a higher paper was acceptable. But on speaking to the maths departments, gleaned that the clause was only there to allow for an A/A student having a slip up on the day. All the others required A for Maths, and all but one required A for FM.

In the end, I made a list of pros and cons (below), have not tried to talk her out of it, and she will be taking it.

PROS
GCSE teacher thinks she is capable
Much lower mark on easier non-calculator paper
Immature and sloppy
Difficulty remembering methods, theorems - hence marks list
Understands ALL the GCSE topics,
Would struggle much more with a written subject
It will support her Physics A level
She only plans to take it to AS, unless it goes exceptionally well (and something else goes exceptionally bad)
I have the mathematical knowledge to help her understand where she is going wrong.
She recognises very quickly when she is struggling and doesn't bury her head in the sand.
She expects it to be difficult, so not going in with rosé tinted specs.

CONS
She doesn't particularly enjoy maths
She doesn't specifically NEED maths, although core subject advisable
Chosen as expects it to be easier than remaining options, so the best of a bad bunch.
Her other 3 subjects are 'hard'.
She has the added pressure of changing schools and leaving all her friends behind.

I'm not saying she has made the right decision - but she has definitely not taken it lightly, and no teacher has ever advised her not to do it.

Incidentally, with sciences being seen as the hardest, I agree with the poster earlier that says it depends how your brain is wired.

Also been told at 6th form open evenings (by science teachers) that sciences are the least step up from GCSE to AS, with Physics being the least. May depend on GCSE exam board.

I think the plan is doomed to failure tbh but my suggestion if you are attempting this would be that if next week is a clear week you make a start on C1 and see how much if it you can cover off in a week of solid work and what he can achieve on a past paper by the end of it. My DS1 reckons most of C1 had already been covered in Y11 so it should be an easy start. You'll have far more free time next week than once he starts back and is doing 5 AS levels so I think you could use the time to see if the plan is in any way realistic.

Also I would have thought M1 would be way more useful than S1 for a prospective engineer if you can't find out what the school do in y12 to answer your question up thread.

DS2 was top set maths at GCSE & got an A, but was already finding it much tougher than it used to be, & was delighted to drop it after that

but they all got put in for some kind of extension paper as well (this was in 2009) for which he got a massive U, & a lot of them found it very hard.

Hi Op. as suggested earlier, get DS to try the Haydon maths paper and also download the edexcel level 3 algebra sample paper. If he can do these, then that would be an indication that he may be ok for AS level. Otherwise explore which other subjects he would do well in. My friends DD has just got a U in AS maths :(

Antracite - that seems to me to be a crucial question but I have asked the OP a couple of times whether the B was a blip or whether he was predicated a B throughout Year 11.

I think a lot depends on why he got a B.

Did he not understand some of the concepts, or was he sloppy?

If he lacked understanding, that does not bode well for his potential in maths. If he was just sloppy, he should improve with maturity and motivation.

Another vote for saying that if the best your DS can achieve at GCSE is a B, then he will not be able to cope with AS Maths. The jump to AS from GCSE is huge, both in terms of content and quantity. My DD is at the end of her AS year, does Maths and has found it really hard. I should add she had the free standing maths qualification in year 11 too.

HisMum4now interesting paper, thanks for posting the link

If his B was an exam blip then maybe he will cope, but A Level Maths is a massive amount of work. My DD got an A at Int 2 Maths ( GCSE equivalent) but found Maths AS very difficult. She coped will with her option subject ( Decision Maths) and got an A in that module, but scored only C and E in C1 and C2. However, she re-sat the C1 and C2 modules this summer along with Mechanics and the two A2 core subjects C3 and C4 and managed an A- infact only a few marks away from an A*.

She struggled with the jump from GCSE level to that required at A Level even though she was a good mathmetician. She says don't underestimate the amount of work you are required to do in private study for maths- easily took her twice as long each week as her other subjects ( a language and art).And she says she doesn't think it was just "hard work" which got her through as there were others in her year who worked harder and still got Ds and Es at A Level. She was good at maths, but it took her a while to get away from the almost rote learning style of lower level maths.

I am a maths teacher, I find that too many parents think that if their daughter/son just works harder, then maths will be passable.

And yet the stats show otherwise.

To study maths beyond (I)GCSE a student needs a certain aptitude, an innate spark of creativity that is not required at (I)GCSE level.

I have taught so many students who work REALLY hard, but just do not have the math skills to progress. It is heart breaking to see them not reaping any reward for their efforts.

I feel sorry for the teachers of "this geat little filler" - wasting their time and effort teaching your child when he and you are treating the whole thing with contempt. Not to mention the money being spent on teaching him. What an attitude you all have.

Jella Maths might be just doing a lot of practice for some. people but for others it is not. People's brains are wired diffently, It might be very hard for your DS to study 5 A levels. Does your son really want to do this if so then let him try otherwise let him do what he wants.

Further to what creamteas said, at A levels Maths there is a huge change of gear in the type of learning skills required to succeed. The learning skills are discussed in this article. According to this article the reality is that at GCSE maths are taught by rote. This method might be an impediment to able students with logical minds (this is just my opinion). It also creates a barrier at A levels when they quickly need to adapt to a more synoptic learning. The FSMQ or further Maths which bridges the GCSEs with A levels, helps this transition. Some very able DC need more time and practice to adapt. However some basically never get the proper mathematical thinking and are therefore not good mathematicians. In my opinion those students that are only good at those recognition/rote learning skills described in the article would struggle at A level and would not make good engineers unfortunately. But if your DS's problem is different, you really need to understand exactly what it is.

Did you look at DS exam paper and did you come to a conclusion why he scored a B? My DS is in top set in a grammar school. However he did mediocre in mocks because of nerves - silly mistakes question after question. For me this does not put in question my DS ability in maths, but does mean that he needs a lot of practice to build resilience. Ultimately only the result counts.

Oh he won't need to focus all his effort on maths to scrape an A, he'll need to focus his effort on maths not to fail completely. A D or a C at AS would be doing extremely well given his starting point.

Teachers don't advise students who get a B not to take maths because they think they won't get a high grade, but because we think he wouldn't get any grade.

The 2014 exams timetable could be consulted here on DofE website. Exam boards do coordinate their exams apparently.

What university are you thinking of? I had a quick look at some and there is a high applicants to places ratio. All seem to state maths as their main a-level followed by the additional science subjects. Whilst grade requirements are sometimes AAB or ABB in some unis the expectation will be that the A is in Maths. I noticed that imperial says A* in Maths.

Whilst your DH may be right in that you don't need it once you're an engineer, it is a way of differentiating amongst applicants. Plus as others have said, if he has to focus all his energy on maths to scrape an A (which is the best he may do according to the teachers who have posted) he may struggle with meeting requirements in his other subjects.

How much does your son want to be an engineer? A friend of mine wanted to be an engineer, struggled to get the grades at a-levels (all As but heavily tutored in a private school) and just couldn't manage at university. He had to drop out. Are you absolutely sure you are doing the right thing for your son not just now but in the long term?

In DD's school, top set sit GCSE maths in year 10, then do FSMQ in Year 11. It is the result of the FSMQ that decides entry to A level rather than the GCSE now.

My Nephew has just acheived an A at GCSE and the thought of doing A Level Maths would make him sick My niece who got 4 As at A Level and is reading French/Business studies at a RG university got an A* at GCSE and i remember asking her if she was going to do A Level Maths and she just laughed and said "I DONT THINK SO".

Most students, not lost students!

Argy, because with all the subjects and modules to be squeezed into the exam timetable, time is very tight and lost students will have more than one exam a day. We often have clashes with two subjects on at the same time - in which case we have to quarantine affected students in the library away from other students sitting that subject, remove their phones and run an extra exam session for them.

Because this happens all the time. There are several different boards doing exams at different times and they don't co-ordinate the timetables. We have clashes every year in the exam timetable.
Also the OP was talking about staying overnight at an external centre's location - this could make it difficult if he had Maths one afternoon and Physics the next morning.
Examination co-ordinator is an awful
job that I would never want as clash resolutions often involve having to keep students in isolation - sometimes overnight!

Vatican - why would his maths exam be on the same day as another subject? Maths is often taken in combination with sciences.

I don't think the OP is listening

Sorry - should say schools re-set pupils every year.

Before I reply, my credentials for your inspection are that I'm a teacher (not Maths, admittedly) in an 11-18 school, and I've worked as head of 6th form before switching to head of department. I know a lot, therefore, about the practicalities of A levels and ucas applications.

Op, I understand your disappointment and frustration, but - I mean this kindly - your plan is bonkers. For one, I can't see how you'll have the time to teach him. Most schools offer 10 hours a fortnight of class time per subject, on average, and expect students to match that in their spare time doing homework and private study. You might get through work quicker as a one to one, but you're still going to need a lot of time, which will obviously replace time spent on other subjects.

Next, the "filler" subject. The school won't see it as that. If he doesn't put the effort in and underachieves, that may trigger behaviour contracts, and will in all likelihood negatively affect his ucas reference (and no, you can't choose who writes that). If he fails a subject, he may be forced to re-sit the year or in extremis, leave the school.

Ucas is another problem. You have to inform them of all AS subjects taken, and predicted grades. The school will do this part, so how will Maths be on there if you're not telling them about it?

I would think it highly likely that a Maths exam would be on the same day as another of his subjects.

Finally - every school I've worked in has re-sat pupils every year. I find it unlikely that your son has stayed in middle sets when he should have been in top set. You have a very scornful attitude towards this school; why not send him somewhere else instead for a fresh start?