Is it usual to need a grade A GCSE to do A level maths now?

If they're looking at old O-level papers, I'd probably fail them (maths teacher). All the old units, £ shilling and pence and whatnot, no idea. It does give me a good idea of why the older generation seems to have much better mental arithmetic than today though, they must have been doing it all the time. You can still sit O-levels today though (international schools offer them I think) and I've looked at some papers and they're not really different to IGCSE, so bright GCSE kids would do fine. Does that mean O-level has been dumbed down? :)

As mentioned, you won't get much disagreement on the TES forum that maths GCSE has been dumbed down, it's an embarrassment of a qualification these days. Although Gove has tried to fix this by making more questions long and unstructured, he really should bin the lot and start again with a double qualification - that's what maths teachers really want. The most recently damaging change to GCSE was a few years ago when they binned the foundation, intermediate and higher tier structure and just made it foundation and higher. It now means that the higher tier paper has to cover questions down to D grade instead of B in the same amount of time, so there is hardly any room for A and A questions - the brightest students aren't really stretched and don't get much chance to show what they can do. A student can get an A or A without actually getting many A/A* questions correct. This then directly feeds into the problem with the leap to A-level.

DS got a B at GCSE- he started the A'level course and it was apparent in the first week that he couldn't cope. He changed.

They do still differentiate - I think the core modules are pure maths with the mechanics/statistics/decision maths being the applied part.

do they still differentiate between Pure Maths & Applied Maths? Or is it just Maths & Further Maths???

iirc the old O-level was just arithmetic, algebra & geometry - though we used log tables (???) somehow but I can't remember what for. sines? cosines? & slide rules were in there somewhere too. trigonometry??? (I did scrape a pass but to this day I don't know how )

from what I saw of my kids' maths work GCSE has less of that but includes extra things like probability

so it is a very different syllabus now

I'm not sure anyone on the TES maths forums has ever tried to hide the fact that they're convinced the maths GCSE has been dumbed down. It seems to be a fairly popular opinion on there.

As a slight aside, I got a B at GCSE 15 years ago on what was 'intermediate tier'. Having helped a colleague who was taking maths GCSE for the 1st time after failing her O-levels, I'm reasonably convinced that I could have sat the papers she did and got an A. I've not learnt any more maths since I left school that could account for that difference.

Those gcse and o level comparisons aren't always accurate though as they are testing different things. So someone taught for o levels may excell at those and fail gcse!

There was a programme on the other day and they got some people to take GCSEs and O level English and Maths. The group that took English got similar grades in both GCSES and O level. The group that took Maths typically got A-C at GCSES and failed O level. So make of that small study what you want but it potentially does show a dumbing down of Maths at GCSE (as I believe is the case with the Science subjects).

sorry that last question was rather inflammatory and I didn't mean it to be. What I meant to say was more "why are the two syllabus', GCSE and A Level, not more linked?" GCSE should be a stepping stone to A level, no?

Isn't the majority opinion on this thread, that there is a huge step up between GCSE and A level maths, really saying that the Maths GCSE isn't up to standard and should be revised?

I did GCE maths 2 years early and got a B. I took two further maths GCSE's (pure and applied) at 16. But I didn't take maths A level because I was rubbish at physics, and physics and maths were seen as complimentary subjects. In fact students weren't allowed to take Physics A level unless they were also taking Maths. As OP's son is going to take physics I would have thought the school would be encouraging him to take maths?

Genuine question - Why is the gap between GCSE and A level now so large as to preclude B graded GCSE students from A levels? Has this been a gradual change, and doesn't the school's attitude (and those on the TES thread) rather buy into the idea that GCSE's have been "dumbed down" over the years?

I doubt the school has assumed. They'll have made the decision based on their previous data. It's in nobody's interest for the OP's DS to fail one of his A-levels. And the school do allow children with a B to take A-level maths, but the OP's DS hasn't met the criteria for that either.

My DS always, and I mean always, got top in year in the Maths challenge and usually top in the school too - and it's a big school. He qualified for the following rounds too. He 'only' got an A at A'level maths and an A at further maths. Some of his friends who were never placed in the Maths challenges got A*'s.

The maths challenge is a different type of maths. My DS never practised for them and found them easy but he struggled with statistics.

The maths teaching at my DS last school relied on the majority, reasonably motivated middle class intake. The teacher was unable to get round the desks because of being overweight and relied on checking with the top students they'd understood . As my DS missed nearly a term in Year 10 through serious illness, the November exam decision was a disaster ; he went from doing additional and being forecast A to getting a C, borderline B. Although he was planning Arts A levels, I ended up paying hundreds to a local college for support teaching. He got his A on Thursday. The local sixth form college seems to want at least Bs for most A levels, but says they discuss at registration, especially for double maths.
Maths is a tough subject but it is also often badly taught. My teachers at school were, frankly, weird, but it was an all girls school.

Admittedly it was a long time ago but I got a B at IGCSE Maths and then proceeded to get an A at Alevel. I feel it's unfair for the school to just assume that because you got a B you won't do well at it and therefore they won't give you the opportunity to try. Is it because they don't want their league tables to reflect possible low Alevel marks. As for the leap between the 2 levels, well there's always a leap between levels - just wait for university.

Scrazy Re the maths challenges, how much do they really relate to GCSE and/or A level maths? I always had the impression that they were more about having practiced those type of questions, a bit like NVR tests.

I will add that students who have gained bronze and silver in the UK maths challenge still struggle with A level maths and I do think it could be due to several factors and teaching being one of those.

So you think all children could get an A in gcse maths with a good teacher? What an odd perspective. You have talked a lot about the teachers input, and the work you've done, but very little about your son's aptitude or opinions.

I don't think you've angered teachers it just seems you aren't hearing what teachers, or former students are almost unanimously saying. You seem to think passing A level maths is just a matter of being taught well?

I will say it can be done...in exceptional circumstances.

I got a C in GCSE, foundation level. I resat the higher level with an outstanding teacher. Got a B. I then went on to do AS when the AS was a stand alone course with its own syllabus. Got a B. I still found the a level tricky. But went on to do OKish a C.

I had excellent teachers.

I struggled in basic algebra which meant it took me longer and still does take me longer to rearrange and spot things.

But I am in my final year of maths/physics degree at the OU now.

Op, I think this was mentioned upthread, but can I just restate, your DS will need to sit Core 1, core 2 and either mech 1 or Stats1 next summer. January exams are now gone.
So 3 extra exams on top of what he needs for his other 4 subjects.

My own DS took 5 AS levels, (maths, further maths, physics, chemistry and design tech) but he achieved A* at GCSE for each subject. It was a massive amount of work, and of course he benefitted from taking some of the exams in January.

He is due to start a masters engineering degree next month at a top 10 Uni. When applying he got 5 offers in the range A*AA - AAB. All required maths and physics at A2.
Plus, he will continue to study maths at a very high level for the next 4 years

A lot of unis will look at the engineering btec alongside A level maths. If your DS is set on engineering, this may be a more manageable route.
Either way, good luck, because honestly, he will need it.

OP, you really need to consider very carefully what you're doing. 5 A levels is a lot of work. I know plenty of people with similar GCSE grades to your son who found 4 AS levels too many and dropped down to 3 within weeks of starting 6th form.
However, if your son truly wants to do maths A level, then I think the best thing you can do for him is to put away the A level textbooks completely. Get the GCSE ones back out, spend as much time as you can going through everything with him. Then before A level teaching starts, sit him down with a GCSE past paper and let him do it in exam conditions.
If he is good at maths, and already at a B grade, it shouldn't be beyond him to get to an A grade with a few weeks of intense teaching. If he can get there, talk to the school, explain and maybe they''ll let him join the class. If he can't get to A grade at GCSE within a few weeks, I honestly think he either doesn't have the ability, or is just so far behind that you won't have time to cover the AS syllabus in time - he needs to be very sure of GCSE before he can even attempt it.

With regards to module choice, he would be best to sit both M1 and M2 if he's going to try engineering without further maths, as its the mechanics which is most important. These will also help a lot with physics A level.
Don't put him in for 5 AS levels - either convince school to teach him maths or ask that he only sit 3 AS levels through school. 5 is too many for all but the most driven and brightest students.

And check UCAS course requirements before you completely dismiss further maths. Many courses also require certain GCSE grades, some specify maths modules for engineering if further maths isn't offered (normally both mechanics modules)

Best of luck to you whatever you decide to do.

I would also caution against the opinions that some subjects are easy fillers. The reasons why some subjects are easy to some DC might not apply to your DS, so he may walk into a trap. The DS of a friend of mine graduated successfully as an engineer this year. As part of his degree he taken a little a marketing course because his peers found it to be an easy kill. He nearly failed in marketing despite of working hard. Unlike his peers he found maths driven subjects much easier than the woolly ones. The style of the exam also plays a role. So indeed, it all depends on the way the brain is wired.

Because maths GCSE was a piece of cake (played truant almost all of my GCSE days and taught myself whole curriculum in the week before the exam) but A-level was a massive jump.

I got a grade B for GCSE maths. I attempted A level. Was lost at the first lesson.

OP, I just wanted to add a word of support to you in keeping faith in your DS and being resourceful at helping him. Coming from the experience of parent of SN DS, this is the only way, though your circumstances are different. You are obviously seeking information and diverse opinions on the matter and you need to get to the bottom of what is going on. Hellbell's advice is very good. Ultimately your support will help him to achieve his potential and get where he needs to be in life. Sometimes it may take an alternative route. It's not a matter for MN vote as you already made clear.