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Original poster

Any other AS DC struggling with GCSE science mark scheme because of pragmatics? Is it discriminatory?

133 replies

HisMum4now · 24/07/2013 14:01

DS has a statement because of his AS, specific language impairment and pragmatic difficulties. He is going into Y11 and doing relatively well in his mock GCSEs. He is really good at maths and sciences. He understands the science, but struggles to score marks because of theory of mind and pragmatics.

If you ask him explicit specific questions he would explain everything giving specialist terminology. But the questions in the exam papers are wage, indirect and convoluted. The marking scheme looks completely illogical, arbitrary to DS. From his point of view he answered correctly the question asked, but within the explicit question there were two other hidden questions and he really couldn't see them - how is he supposed to guess which other questions he is supposed to answer? There are too many other questions he could comment on, but these don't logically follow from the question asked on paper. He feels it is unfair.

For example:
Question: "Why radiator is painted black?"
DS answer: "Because black surfaces are better emitters of infrared radiation then light surfaces"
Marks: 1 out of 3. He needed to add "so higher rate of energy transfer" For DS this is self evident and contained within his answer "better emitters". He would never guess to add this. So he scores about a third of the marks!

Another example:
Question: "How would gas and nuclear power stations be used to meet the demand for electricity within 24 hours?"
DS answer: "The nuclear power station is used for baseline demand. The gas station is used to generate extra power when demand increases"
Mark: 2 out of 3. He needed to add "because of short start up time". But the question was How, not Why!

Often out of many possible valid answers the examiner only gives marks for one narrow specific answer that looks arbitrary, random to DS (even to me) in relation to the question asked. For example:

Question: "Vaccination against measles virus will not protect the child against rubella virus. Why?"
DS?s answer: "Because measles and rubella are different pathogens"
Marks: zero... not correct ???
I don't even know what the "correct" answer is but nothing in the way the question is articulated suggests that other answer. I can see what DS means by arbitrary and random mark scheme.

DS's problem is not with knowledge and understanding, but with guessing what the examiner wants. Theory of mind.

DS works very hard - 5 hours of homework and revision every day. Most of this time is dedicated to getting sense of pragmatics and mark schemes. However it doesn?t pay off. It looks to me that with exam papers like these higher marks are just unattainable for ASD DS because of pragmatic bias built in the questions.

Is DS the only one having this problem?
What can be done?

OP posts:
Copthallresident · 28/07/2013 11:58

Op I'm afraid the discriminatory nature of the exam system for those with SpLDs is only going to get worse. On the dyslexic side as well as increasing the emphasis on spelling and grammar they have now introduced a stipulation that evidence of need for extra time for a pupil is dependent on them having working memory and processing scores in the below average range, in spite of the fact that at a meeting representatives of independent School Associations, Dyslexia association, ed psychs etc pointed out that this discriminates against the very bright Dyslexics, for whom average or above average processing and working memory scores still represent a significant disability, certainly greater than for a Dyslexic of average intelligence. It is the gap between ability and processing and working memory skills that is the issue not the absolute level of the latter. The exam boards response was that after all many pupils without SpLDs would like extra time for checking, clearly no longer interested in sticking with the principle of levelling the playing field. We were put in the position of having to provide additional evidence of need with 6 weeks to go to my DDs AS, to enable her to continue to have the extra time she had at GCSE, something many schools and families would not have the resources to do.

She did manage an A in Double Science though, without extra time and without a scientific brain, as well as problems with processing and working memory.

Good luck to your DS.

Original poster
HisMum4now · 27/07/2013 23:17

Be careful and and focus on the words in the question such as 'describe', evaluate, explain etc as they are very precise. For example, if you explain (say a graph) rather than just describing the pattern, when the question asks you to describe, you lose all the marks. Again, lots of exam practice is the way forward. Don't give 2 answers if it only asks for 1 answer.

I appreciate the advice and all the points of view. This is helpful [to some extent]. I don't mean to criticize anyone personally.

However, this exam technique is not working for AS Dc. The point is that autistic Dc cannot possibly follow this distorted thinking path. This path is not intrinsic to the question as it is articulated and not integral to the thinking process about the science content. It is not intrinsic and counterproductive even for a scientifically minded 'normal' logic. It is really a huge arbitrary deviation.

Autistic DC wouldn't guess which way to deviate - any direction out of 360 degrees is equally arbitrary for them, unless it is integral to their thinking process. Autistic DC would improve with exam technique, but only so far, mostly by memorising. They will always be at a disadvantage because the logic underlying this "teachers mindset" is a distortion and unnecessary to the science. It only finds justification in the collective group think.

The questions are weighted excessively towards pragmatics, theory of mind, ability to guess and focus on what examiner wants. To the extent that is not justified by the science and only serves the comfort and accepted beliefs of the system.

This has discriminatory effect on autistic population.

OP posts:
Original poster
HisMum4now · 27/07/2013 22:45

"from a teachers point of view, it doesn't answer the question to a sufficient level"
I see, but why is it legitimate to apply the filter of teacher's point of view? Have anyone questioned that? Students answer questions from their own point of view, looking through their own eyes and though their own thinking process. They answer questions from the scientific point of view. It is the intended purpose of the exam to get them thinking and applying knowledge through their own mind, not to second guess the teachers' point of view. What is described as "teachers's point of view" distorts the logic of the question and that of the answer. This type of teacher's point of view is neither relevant nor legitimate. A scientifically valid answer should stand on its own in any context. There shouldn't be "this is the correct answer" and "this is the answer for the teachers".

"... that would demonstrate his understanding of the science that he has learnt at GCSE." There is a huge leap from asking a distorted question "fromteacherspointofview" and assuming that it demonstrates real understanding of science learned and ability to apply it. This is a very flawed assumption. By definition if you ask the question "fromteacherspointofview" and only accept "theanswerdesirablefromteachers'pointof_view" - it only demonstrate that the student can guess / memorize the teachers' point of view. A skewed experiment provides skewed results. The teachers who know their science would understand that this experiment (i.e. question-answer) is not designed to test any science , it is designed to test the guessing what teachers want, pragmatics, theory of mind, plain memorizing. Teachers who really believe those flawed question test knowledge and ability only do so because they are incompetent at science. This makes those questions flawed.

"I would expect him to actually say why this would be the case"
So why don't they ask this in the question? If their is an expectation it should be communicated. Their is always a way to ask not leading better defined questions. Incidentally, he did say it was because they are different pathogens.

"To say 'because they are different' could be answered by a primary school student."
DS answered "because they are different pathogens". Not only this demonstrates correct terminology for a 1 mark question, it is also the nutshell of the correct scientific explanation. If you would only be allowed to say one thing, "different pathogens" is the most concise incisive answer, right to the point. Explanation about specific antibodies is a further detail , which the question does not require because it is a 1 mark question. If they want to hear about antigens and antibodies, they should ask the question differently. The mark scheme is arbitrary and bias towards teachers set of skills and priorities.

GCSE syllabus - this is the jargon for teachers and only the teachers are interested in it. It should not be the concern for the student. The syllabus is not inherent to the logical thinking about a scientific question. Newton and Einstein didn't keep in mind the syllabus. Flawed perspective, wrong priority.

"... I taught many students that sound similar to your DS, and it is a struggle in science, as they clearly have an excellent scientific mind, yet fail to demonstrate this in the exam" Isn't this evidence that the exam is flawed and not fit for purpose? Somebody up the thread commented that they did brilliantly in exams without understanding any science, just by memorizing mark schemes from past papers.

Wooly questions introduce pragmatic bias and distort the science. They go cross purpose with the logic of science and student's thinking process. They penalize those who "clearly have an excellent scientific mind ". They are discriminatory because they disproportionately affect ASD population because of their disability, putting higher marks out of reach, for reasons unrelated to science knowledge and ability to apply it. Their is no legitimate reason for this discrimination.

"Sadly these type of questions will become more of a problem if he takes A level science." This is an assumption deriving from the flawed assumption that the question test knowledge. DS finds A-level questions and IGCSE questions much easier because they are more correctly defined.

Exam questions should be free of bias and distortion. The mark scheme should not be arbitrary. Teachers marking papers should be given more discretion.

There shouldn't be a discriminatory disadvantage for a particular set of disabilities.

OP posts:
Crumbledwalnuts · 27/07/2013 20:10

"Be careful and and focus on the words in the question such as 'describe', evaluate, explain etc as they are very precise. For example, if you explain (say a graph) rather than just describing the pattern, when the question asks you to describe, you lose all the marks. Again, lots of exam practise is the way forward. Don't give 2 answers if it only asks for 1 answer."

That's just dumb. Not your fault obviously. But how ludicrous.

Whathaveiforgottentoday · 26/07/2013 22:04

I commented and I'm both a teacher and an examiner (but I don't examine GCSE science).

I examine at A level and it was for precisely the reason in your post that I decided to apply to be an examiner. Gives you a great insight into what they are looking for.

I completely agree with your concerns about GCSE science. I often see answers that are correct but are not one of the answers allowed on the mark scheme. Very bright students often miss the easier details, going straight in for the more difficult parts of the question.

Be careful and and focus on the words in the question such as 'describe', evaluate, explain etc as they are very precise. For example, if you explain (say a graph) rather than just describing the pattern, when the question asks you to describe, you lose all the marks. Again, lots of exam practise is the way forward. Don't give 2 answers if it only asks for 1 answer.

Woopdedo · 26/07/2013 21:59

Just to comment specifically on the vaccination question. I can see why your DS thinks that 'because they are different pathogens' is correct, however from a teachers point of view, it doesn't answer the question to a sufficient level, that would demonstrate his understanding of the science that he has leant at GCSE.
I would expect him to actually say why this would be the case - why the vaccine of one pathogen would not protect against another pathogen. To say 'because they are different' could be answered by a primary school student. Remember the whole point of the exam is to demonstrate understanding of the GCSE syllabus.

I would expect him to demonstrate his understanding of antigens, complementary shapes, anti bodies etc, using key words. Also look at how many marks it is worth. If its worth several, than saying they are different wouldn't get more than one anyway. Saying the 'antigen' is a different shape would.
I have taught many students that sound similar to your DS, and it is a struggle in science, as they clearly have an excellent scientific mind, yet fail to demonstrate this in the exam. Perhaps writing down key words to try and use in each answer might help him, or ask him to elaborate on each point made - state the 'obvious' and then add more information. Also look at how many marks are awarded and make a valid point for each one. Ask himself 'why' after each point made.
Sadly these type of questions will become more of a problem if he takes A level science as they are worth more marks.
Hope that helps.

Original poster
HisMum4now · 26/07/2013 21:33

Very surprising that there are no comments from teachers and examiners.

OP posts:
chrome100 · 26/07/2013 17:44

On the other side of the coin, I did exceptionally well at science GCSE despite not understanding any of it!! This is because I spent hours learning answers word for word and churning them out in the exam. I think it's ludicrous you can "cheat" a system like this - a well written exam should test your understanding of something, not your memory of it.

Crumbledwalnuts · 25/07/2013 13:07

What are the assumptions for the thinking that it is inclusive and expanding minds?

It's woolly thinking to start with. General woolliness that allows everyone to gravitate to the mediocre and to standard thought. It is beloved of the educational establishment I believe. I agree with you btw.

Original poster
HisMum4now · 25/07/2013 13:05

What are the assumptions for the thinking that it is inclusive and expanding minds? These assumptions are flawed and not working if these question bring down grade boundaries.

Why is it inclusive? It certainly excludes very bright and hard working AS and non-SN dc who know and can apply science, but struggle with pragmatics because it goes against the scientific logic, the thinking process that is integral to good science. Many people commented here that many DC with good scientific mind stumble over those woolly questions. To be inclusive they could formulate easier questions.

Science exams should select those who are good at science, who are likely to choose STEM subjects as a career and go to innovate and discover. Music exams should favour good musicians, dance exam should favour good dancers. How is it inclusive and extending mind if the exam penalizes the very people it is supposed to encourage.

How wooliness extends thinking? Thinking about what? These are science exams, not RE. Does it extend anything else than the ability to memorize past papers and mark scheme? Because this is what the woolly questions are testing - the ability to memorize and to guess what -examiners twisted- mind wants, not the knowledge and ability to apply science. These are two different skills and I would argue they are incompatible in one person. For the sake of argument, either you are Einstein type or you are Tony Blair type, but not both in one person.

OP posts:
Crumbledwalnuts · 25/07/2013 12:34

I think he'd be met by a storm of protest. Woolliness is considered inclusive and extending thinking and such.

Original poster
HisMum4now · 25/07/2013 12:26

Could anyone comment on the point made by Whathaveiforgotten - that ill defined questions like this bring down grade boundaries.

So to raise standards, i.e. to raise the grade boundaries, Gove should ask to remove distorted questions like this instead of making exam boards adding more of ill thought through questions in the hurry.

Anyone from exam boards?

OP posts:
Original poster
HisMum4now · 25/07/2013 11:57

I would really like to look closely ti iGCSEs as from the first sight question look more accessible to AS DS.

We had a discussion at school and the teacher argue that if DS struggles with GCSE questions, he wouldn't cope with A levels. I tell them in is the contrary, questions in A level paper are logical, better defined, not distorted by pragmatics to the same extent as GCSEs. I gave A level Physics paper to DS and he coped very well. He didn't know all the facts but he didn't stumble on "where do you put the power station". The teachers don't understand.

OP posts:
SprinkleLiberally · 25/07/2013 09:27

Agree this is a problem for many children, with and without sen. It occurs in subjects mentioned already. Science, geog and history especially. Many pupils don't understand why they can get higher grades with much more ease in subjects where the questions contain less "hidden" content.
It also foxes smt in schools who observe lessons and note the excellent teaching and learning but it not always translating into automatic high grades. Exam practice is the only way. I feel your pain though.

Crumbledwalnuts · 25/07/2013 09:16

Oh I'm so sorry I will read the thread more closely.

Crumbledwalnuts · 25/07/2013 09:16

Isn't this so that marking can be done by people without understanding of the science?

Is there any chance that IGCSE is different, can you investigate this option? It's supposed to be more like old o levels. It might cost about 100 per exam to enter him separately.

gobbin · 25/07/2013 09:11

Found the same last year preparing for GCSEs in Yr 10. It's just exam technique for these particular exams. Science, Geog, English and History are the same.

This year DS found this last lot of exams a bit easier because he'd got into the habit of making his point, explaining it further, then adding in anything else that seemed logical or obvious that he might have missed. He also got into the flow of 'What - How - Why' to develop longer answers.

In History, with questions like 'What do you understand about Nazi churches from Source A' he would miss out the obvious stuff like 'it has an altar draped in a Nazi flag with a picture of Adolf Hitler on top' which was worth easy marks and go straight into why/how explanation (which was also needed, but he'd lose marks for not stating what he could see first). Nuts!

Oblomov · 25/07/2013 08:54

Very interesting.
Ds1 is AS and although young, already struggles. Reading with interest.

ThreeBeeOneGee · 25/07/2013 08:25

In answer to the question about iGCSEs, he doesn't start the courses until January, but from the information I have been given, there is no coursework, no assessments apart from at the end of Y11, and the questions are supposed to be more like O-level in style. Hopefully less of the "Where would you put the power station?" and more of the "Define a redox reaction and give an example."

ThreeBeeOneGee · 25/07/2013 08:21

Yes, Geography is even worse! On several questions in the end of Y8 exam, DS1 had answered the question correctly, but hadn't used the phrasing or keywords expected by the mark scheme, so got few or no marks. He ended up getting less than 50% in an exam that he had revised for and knew and understood the syllabus. It has completely put him off Geography and he can't wait to give it up.

circular · 25/07/2013 05:57

Can relate to this too with DD1 (yr11), but more in Geography than science. Half marks or less for getting 'correct' answer, but then have to give what the teacher refers to as a 'so what' for everything. Took her about a year toget the hang of it, but still slips up.

Also completely thrown this year by change in style of OCR gateway Physics paper, included a crossword.

No SN, or diagnosed dyslexia (DH slightly dyslexic), but an immature writer.

NoComet · 25/07/2013 02:20

"AS dc don't. DS doesn't understand why the answer in the MS is there given how the question is phrased. AS DS doesn't get the examiner mindset and wouldn't include any sentences that are not part of his own logic and thinking process."

I think this applies to all good scientists. Any pupil who actually understands the work and is not just learning it parrot fashion has exactly the same problem.

To truly understand something you put it your own words and in the context of you own experience. Trying to unravel this process and put it in someone else's words is very difficult even if you are NT.

Also many good scientists are not totally NT, DD1 and I are dyslexic and I suspect many scientists have shades of AS. Understanding people is not something most scientists do well. Subtle social niceties pass us by, but obscure facts don't.

Original poster
HisMum4now · 24/07/2013 23:01

Please tell me about iGCSE, how are exam papers different?

OP posts:
ThreeBeeOneGee · 24/07/2013 22:21

DS1 has this exact problem with KS3 Science and he is neurotypical. DS2 has AS but is still only 11; he has a tricky time with this style of question already, especially in English.

I have found some Science past papers with their mark schemes, to help DS1 spot key words and patterns in what the marker is looking for.

DH and I were both in the second year to do GCSE, so you can imagine how arbitrary the questions and mark schemes appeared to us when they were first introduced. DH refers to it as "Where would you put the power station?" questions, which is our family shorthand for this type of testing.

I'm v.glad that the secondary school has changed over to doing iGCSE for Science subjects.

Original poster
HisMum4now · 24/07/2013 19:41

Well, this is exactly the difference between SN and no n SN.

Non AS dc will just learn the exam technique, get "what examiner wants" and score marks.

AS dc don't. DS doesn't understand why the answer in the MS is there given how the question is phrased. AS DS doesn't get the examiner mindset and wouldn't include any sentences that are not part of his own logic and thinking process. The question should be less broad and trivial, more targeted.

OP posts: