Are grammar schools better for above average children?

I dunno. But it's sad. She is much missed, by me anyway, even though we rarely agreed.

Oh no, what's happened to Seeker? Thought it a bit strange that she hadn't chipped in to this thread.

beatback
Looking at the results of Clarendon and Chatham
www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=136382
www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=136385
it is clear that Marlowe does not stand a chance because it combines low local opportunities with 11+ failure.
At least if all the kids in Thanet were given the same opportunities (I know East Kent pretty well BTW), those that currently get dumped into Marlowe might have a chance.
But Thanet is an oddity.

How do you explain Swanscome? : in an area with excellent rail links to Canary Wharf etc and easy access to the Motorway network and better opportunities

Why are the Schools you have described so awful? The Marlowe academy must be one of the worst Schools in the country. I dont think the MARLOWE ACADEMY would be any better even if there were no Grammar Schools within Kent. The problem with Schools like the MARLOWE ACADEMY, are related more to the problems in places like Ramsgate and the problems of deprivation and low aspiration. These in places like Ramsgate and Hull and in a lot of these coastal towns there is no north/south divide just deprivation in equal measures. I do not think its CLARENDON HOUSE GRAMMAR or other Grammar Schools in the near locality that causes the problems that face the MARLOWE ACADEMY or other Schools you have mentioned.

Russians, I did not realise she'd decamped. no worries

but what about all the kids who do not have parents as motivated as her (and siblings at the Grammar school)

if you lived in Deal, would you really be happy with Walmer?
or in Ramsgate at Marlowe?
or in Swanscombe at Swan Valley (which has the lowest Value Added in the county to boot)

Seeker isn't even here now. I don't think it;s fair talking about her Or her DS anymore.

Talkinpeace. If Seekers DS gets As and Bs in his G.C.S.Es and that enables him to get in to the Grammar School for the 6th form and ultimately University then all Seekers worries will have gone. It is quite possible that the School that Seekers DS is at, realise that he is probably one of their most able students and are teaching him and other high or above average abilty kids in a different and more academic way than other students within their School . An approach like that may enable him to have an equal education to that he may have got at the Grammar School, which is where he should probably be with his academic abilty.

The point of the blerdy Ebacc is that it does highlight the schools that stuffed their results with Btec woodworrk and general studies
ie it highlights the number of children being given the right academic grounding to go to top flight Universities and employers

much less of an issue now that the curriculum has changed, but statistically in a comp it should be possible to get 33% EBACC (as per those listings) so any school getting less than that has either had its most academic kids sent elsewhere or has questions to answer.

It is also very much the case that the Kent 11+ has been so mangled by prep schools and tutoring that many bright kids are ending up at the High Schools - seeker's DS as a case in point - and doing rather well
but that is SO SO dependent on the individual school rather than comprehensive opportunities for all.

Curlew/Talkinpeace. The school is more than outstanding it has gold medal status or something like that. The point i am trying to say is that it is possible that a non selective school in a selective area can ensure that all students achieve their potential. Unfortunatly High Schools/Secondary Modern Schools have been tainted with the label of failing or sink schools before the School/Schools have been able to demonstrate that they can enable their pupils to achieve their potential when infact in many cases they can. TALKINPEACE. I thought EBACC was not being taken seriously even by Grammar Schools.

I think the problem you have is thinking that "high/secondary modern school" and "sink school" are synonyms.

You can have good and bad grammars, comprehensives and secondary moderns/high schools. The school you describe is a obviously a very good high school. Presumably it is either good or outstanding according to OFSTED.

What is your point?

beatback
The basic fact of the matter is that any school in Kent is not comprehensive. By definition and by stated policy of Kent County Council.
The fact that some of the non grammars get fantastic results does not take away from the fact that many do not, and the children who have been segregated out of the academic school are not given the same opportunities as those segregated in.

Look at the number of Kent Schools getting under 10% Ebacc
compared with the number of Hampshire Schools

the Secondary Moderns in Kent do NOT give the full range of Comprehensive learning

A question for Talkinpeace/Curlew. What type of School is a School that achieves 72% A TOC English Maths thats in a fully selective area. is it 1 A sink School OR 2 A outstanding School. With these oustanding results despite losing 30% of pupils to other Grammar Schools in its L.A . It is not important what label you call a School, surely the only thing thats important is that the School enables its pupils to achieve their potential and not what the definition of what type of School it is called.

"Therefore these non Selective Schools are educating all abilties. I admit there might not be very many in each non selective School and these Schools might not achieve good results and are letting down these kids and other average abilty kids. "

-0andnthisnis a wrong and unwarranted assumption too!

No- you are wrong- and shouting doesn't make you right! A comprehensive school is one that educates all the children in the area, regardless of ability.

BEING EDUCATED WITHIN ONE SCHOOL.

TALKINPEACE/CURLEW. Are you saying that in Kent there is nobody who scored over 360 which is the Kent Grammar School pass rate being Educated in a non Selective School in Kent. Assuming(I KNOW THAT THERE ARE PUPILS ) at these non selective schools these pupils in definition would be above average or high abilty pupils. Therefore these non Selective Schools are educating all abilties. I admit there might not be very many in each non selective School and these Schools might not achieve good results and are letting down these kids and other average abilty kids. I know that non selective Schools in selective areas do have a few high abilty kids within them, so in definition there are kids of all abilties been educated within one School. (IN MY IGNORANCE I THOUGHT THE TYPE OF SCHOOL EVEN IF IT HAD 1 HIGH ABILTY PUPIL AND 1 LOW LEVEL ABILTY PUPIL AND OTHER LEVELS OF ABILTY IT WAS A COMPREHENSIVE SCHOOL).

A comprehensive school admits every child in the locality.
There are no schools like that in Kent because it is a Grammar county.
As is Lincolnshire and Buckinghamshire.

No school in Kent teaches children from all abilities, as the most academic 20-30% are at one school and the rest at another.

Here in Hampshire, all of the state schools are Comprehensives because there is no testing or selection at age 11 at all. Admission is by locality.

A comprehensive school is one that educates all abilities. There are no comprehensive schools in Canterbury because the "top" 23%!go to grammar schools. So there are no all ability schools.

Talkinpeace. There are Comprehensives in Kent because they are non selective and accept all abities.Having said that I do not like Comprehensive Schools one bit because they are no good for anyone who is not middle of the road and i am sure that the top 30% of the abilty range would benefit from a Grammar school education. On other posts it has been explained that a malignant 5% or so destroy the education of the many. If there was a expansion of Grammar Schools places and they took 30% of pupils, the High schools took 50% of pupils the malignant 5%educated in special units permanently not temporary, the pupils educated in the High Schools the mainstream 50% of pupils education would be greater enhanced by not being brought down by the malignant 5% of pupil. The other 15% of pupils who though no fault of their own are struggling for a decent education and need specialist help to achieve a relevant education for them they would be in relevant education whether that be vocational or an other type of education. Until politicians/ teachers and unions accept that the malignant 5% need to be permanently seperated from the mainstream .The education of the many will suffer, Its time as i have said in other posts that these people realise that not everyone should be educated together and surely above average and even average abilty kids would benefit from a Grammar School education. I realise there is absolutely no chance of this happening but nevertheless you can live in hope.

thegirlwithnoname, Curlew is correct. Kent is an Entirely Grammar / Sec-Mod county. THere are no comprehensives at all in Kent.

There are no comprehensive schools in Canterbury.

Gazzalw, I would question whether there is a difference in the academic quality of the intake at London Independents and Grammars. I think differences in results are due to factors such as resources - chiefly class sizes and teacher/pupil ratio so that individual teachers are spread less thinly in terms of time.

The grammars also tend to have a larger number in the year group so might have a few children at the lower end who wouldn't quite have made it into a very selective London school. It takes only a couple of students with a few slightly lower grades to knock a school down the league table, but in addition, it is just harder to stay high in the league tables with a larger cohort as there is more chance of the odd pupil under performing.

I accept there is a tiny no of exceptions. Westminster and the two St Pauls would be the most obvious.

There will also be more likelihood of parents with extra income supplementing their children's study with good tutors at exam time. These can be easily 60 pounds per hour.