There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

But the other students he hangs out with did apply. His best friend is going. The things holding him back are not to do with school. It takes a very strong 18 year old to tell his parents that he is going to university with or without their approval, and to do so without financial backing from home is, frankly, impossible. Just look through a student finance application - even those who qualify for grants and bursaries hardly get enough to cover accommodation costs. The money needs to be coming from somewhere, and I think the teenaged DC who goes against his or her parents' views and wishes to independently get a university education is rare indeed.

In the 6th form at my school, the student who is likely to get the highest grades (As across the board) hasn't even applied - simply not interested, despite the efforts of teachers. His parents don't think it's a good idea (believe me - I spoke to them) because of financial concerns and the fact that it's "not for people like us". He has a job for next year - in Argos.

This is where Xenia's argument of sending your DC to selective schools so that they follow the crowd (in a 'everybody is going off to Uni so I might as well go" way) comes into its own. The same boy in that environment would be much easier to persuade, except you'd never get him in that environment in the first place I suppose. Hmmm....

That will go nicely with my

To answer your points though, Habba

You say that teachers are saying
"that kids should be made to feel that getting a manual job is just as worthy as getting a well paid office job for example. And that getting a GCSE 'D' in Maths/English is something that they should be happy with."

Well, if one of my students comes to my school with a Level 2 in KS2 Maths/English (and yes, it does happen) and wants to be a builder, then comes out with GCSE grade Ds and gets a job on a building site, then yes, that is something they should be happy with. They have still made exceptional progress whilst at secondary school.

"Various studies have shown that there is a disproportionate number of selective kids taking up coveted uni places and jobs"
This is certainly true, but as this thread has covered, there is far more to it than low expectations at school. In the 6th form at my school, the student who is likely to get the highest grades (As across the board) hasn't even applied - simply not interested, despite the efforts of teachers. His parents don't think it's a good idea (believe me - I spoke to them) because of financial concerns and the fact that it's "not for people like us". He has a job for next year - in Argos.

As for me being "all virtuous" where do I go - oh woe is little ole me, getting bullied by nasty posters"?

As for me bring antagonistic, maybe, but at the risk of sounding juvenile, Evil started it

What have I got to say about this OP got to do with what I said in another OP? Feel free to give me grief in the other thread.

Habba, to be fair, coming on to threads and referring to a certain poster as HRH (another education thread, not this one) is pretty antagonistic and not likely to win you any friends. So whilst others are busy leaping to your defense, I feel that you are being a bit disingenuous in coming over all virtuous.

But getting back to the OP...

There are obviously schools where expectations are low but there also schools where the expectations are average rather than low. IMO this is equally a problem.

At our selective the expectation is that you will get A*s and you will go onto Oxbridge and from there a highly successful career. Obviously some will go on to become 'average' but the driving expectation is that you will aim high.

I am not going to claim that they are representative of their profession but many teachers here on MN make it clear that the above puts too much pressure on kids and that kids should be made to feel that getting a manual job is just as worthy as getting a well paid office job for example. And that getting a GCSE 'D' in Maths/English is something that they should be happy with.

Various studies have shown that there is a disproportionate number of selective kids taking up coveted uni places and jobs. You have to wonder how much of that is down to bias on the part of unis and employers, and how much is down to parents and teachers telling kids that it's ok to be average.

Thanks Warwick. I have backed out of a number of education threads recently, not because I felt bullied or intimidated, but because it quickly became evident that it was an anti-Gove or anti selectives bitching session and non-believers were not welcome.

Bit pointless having a debate where accusations of being a Gove apologist is chucked at anyone who doesn't think that the man is a 100% 'incompetent twat', followed by the comment that one should leave the arguments (and the thread) to those who are qualified to debate the issues.

To paraphrase Edmund Burke, all that is necessary for posters like Evil to trumph is that posters like us do nothing. So, to the barricades

Pleased you have continued on this thread habba. I have followed the discussion with interest, it has been in the main informative and constructive so it's always a shame that, as on so many threads, some posters attempt to shut down alternative arguments by accusing other posters of being determined to stir up trouble and or asking whats your problem. Trying to embarrass posters by pointing out spelling and grammar mistakes is beyond the pale, particularly as most are obviously typos or auto spelling mistakes

Most teachers that I know, as most teachers on this site, accept that there are problems in education that need solving, that there are some poor quality teachers, because they work with them, and that there are many poor schools because they work in them. Parents and students are equally aware. As with all professions, teachers are not above criticism and shouldn't expect to be.

Most listen to counter arguments politely and reply equally politely.

Most do not take the general comments made by posters, personally.

Many believe that Gove and DFE haven't got it all wrong, although it is a brave person who posts such an opinion on MN as I have seen on other threads.

All should be able to express views on MN without being subjected to personal attacks. Maybe then those with alternative views would feel less intimidated and be able to contribute freely and honestly.

I just had a chance to catch up with what you posted Evil.

I did not say that your opinion was not worthy of note because you are just a drama teacher. I was making the point that my opinion is just as valid as yours given that you aren't some education think tank academic for example.

As for being tired of people regularly chucking in the comment that they are that someone like you is a teacher, perhaps its time to heed the words as opposed to seeing it as ignorant peope intent on teacher bashing

Warwick1 - Still here :) I didn't want to derail this thread with personal stuff but since in my absence Evil is still dishing out the personal stuff....

Evil - You are so determined to be the victim. I wasn't denigrating your position as a drama teacher . I was merely pointing out that it is supremely arrogant of you to be so dismissive of people's opinions on education policy.

I have spent twenty years in the system, as a pupil, 6th Former, undergrad and post grad. Today I have two DCs who have gone thru primary and then selective secondary. I know that I am not a drama teacher but I like to think that I have something to contribute to a thread about education.

Trying to shut down argument through derogatory comments on spelling and grammar is low.

There are posterson MN with LDs. There are posters for who English is not their first langauge. There are posters who had a very poor education. There are posters with low IQ.

All are welcome! All have somehting to give to a debate!

That article does not make the claim you say.

Moved to London from Cheshire and my daughter who was at a Grammar School got her 4th choice High School. The London academy school was exactly as described in the article by Ofsted. Her motivation and grades dropped dramatically. Teachers and pupils had such low expectations.Must have been bad if the 15 year old year 11's understood this themselves and were frustrated. I pulled my daughter out and home tutored her for the last 4 months before GCSEs because the school was so poor.You would think the teachers would be happy to have bright motivated pupils but it seems the teachers seem as downtrodden as the pupils. Such a shame that the system is letting so many children down.

Bonsoir, this study indicates that genes account for only 2-3 percent of heritable intelligence.

Ir's a no-brainer really.

www.newscientist.com/mobile/article/mg21829204.600-finding-the-players-in-the-symphony-of-iq-genes.html

[[http://www.newscientist.com/mobile/article/mg21829204.600-finding-the-players-in-the-symphony-of-iq-genes.htm

I am not really denigrating myself , I do a good job as do most of my colleagues . To be fair I left a high flying position mainly to have more time with my family. Being able to put something back is a nice bonus though.

ARIS. You really should not keep denigrating yourself, just listening to your opinion"s show you really care for your students and the fact you came out of high flying career to put something back is laudable.

I am sorry it"s my lack of clarity. I have no problems with Teachers though i was a bit of the "CLASS CLOWN" at School.

I really am not that great of a teacher , as I said a bog standard teacher in a bog standard school. Most of my colleagues are hard working and guide students to success .

But thanks for the compliment .

Thanks Beatback.

You then said I wish YOU would stop looking to attack.

I don't really care but it is what you said