There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

I absolutely agree with you teacherwith2kids. I do not in any way blame the teaching staff, but the whole politicising of the education system.

Apologies if I am repeating what others have said upthread...

But if you reward, incentivise and severely punish schools on the basis of A to C grades, consistently, over years, then schools - however they feel, morally, about it - will work to maximise A to C grades. Disproportionately, the schools that struggle most to make that benchmark will focus most on it.

Schools far, far above the benchmark A* to C grades have the luxury - and in these days where failure to meet flor targets means sacked headteachers and forced academization, it is a luxury - of devoting some of each day's 24 hours per teacher to the stretching of the most able. Most MN-popular schools will have that luxury, many other schools do not.

You cannot simultaneously put extraordinary pressure on schools and teachers to do Task A (get a certain proportion of children to jump through Hoop 1) and expect them, by the way and unrewarded / unrecognised, to also do task B (ensure a certain proportion fo children jump through a different hoop, Hoop B). When the jobs and livelihoods, mental and physical health of teachers and heads depends on the A to C percentage (and the Ofsted grades that are ever more tightly linked to these), then funnily enough, that's what they concentrate on. In some schools, where due to the luck of the cohort that pressure is felt less keenly, then there is sufficient time, enough effort, and enough resources to also ensure that the most able students get As.

People, in all walks of life, do their best to do what they are asked to do, what they are rewarded / punished for and what is valued in the environment they are in. No-one should be surprised that in a punitive environment where A to C percentages are the be-all and end-all, the A/ A percentage is not ocused on to the same degree. If it becomes something that is highly valued, then in those schools with resources available, it will be focused on. In those schools very near the floor level for A* to C, where there are quite simply no more moments to be wrung out of every day or hours out of every teacher, it may be focused on less - not due to the will of the teachers, just due to the physically and mentally impossible demands bein placed upon them.

On a personal note, DS's (very MN) non-selective is supurb at stretching pupils. But it has the luxury of a very able cohort.

And you want them to be GRATEFUL??

But this is why the whole system is so mad.

Stick a bunch of 30 14 year olds in a room and tell them about moles (not the blind furry kind) for 40 minutes. Or the structure of a leaf. It's a wonder there isn't mass suicide.

But post, I'd say the vast majority of the population only do things - particularly things they find difficult, or even boring - if there is some kind of incentive there. How many of us would go to work without our pay at the end of the month ? Expecting Teens to be grateful they have a free education system is a bit far fetched, they need to be coaxed, rewarded, incentivised, encouraged, and challenged, just like the rest of society.
In my experience - and I repeat, I know this varies from school to school, and I also think more schools are now catching up with better tracking systems - but in my ds's school, they just weren't interested in stretching the capable coasters, because they had too much pressure to push the 'not quite Cs' into the golden band.

Having a degree in a subject is not the only requirement in a good secondary teacher , but it it one of the requirements.

wordfactory
There is a problem in some schools BUT this "story" is political posturing based on a very small data set - whose statistical validity has not been proven.
Therefore to extrapolate from a biased data set to all schools is inappropriate.

Maybe Ofsted needs to be brought under the wing of the National Office for Statistics and then it will get away with publishing less junk.

Having a degree in a subject does not make one a good teacher.
I have a Geography degree but I call myself an Accountant, not a Geographer.
And I'd be a rubbish teacher even though I'm very good at explaining to small groups.
I'm bright enough to understand that about myself.
Gove is not bright enough to understand his own limitations.

I do see what you mean Arbitary, but I feel many teachers do not stretch and challenge higher ability pupils because they themselves would struggle to grasp the concepts they are trying to teach their students.

This isn't such a big problem at primary schools because most adults with a degree could stretch and challenge a ten year old. To do so for a fifteen year old - especially one disengaged with the curriculum anyway - is another matter.

I don't feel that the above is the sole problem outlined in the OP, but is, I feel, a part of it.

Don't know the answer to that one, but it still isn't addressing how we get kids in the UK to realise they are so lucky to get free education (at the point of delivery) and that school is not a waste of time.

There is a difference between someone not getting an A in their subject at 18 and whether they'd get an A at 25 after having done a degree in the subject...

Post, they can, as I was that teenager.

But why should they have to? :) What is the point of paying teachers' salaries if we say 'oh well, the children can do it themselves'?

I don't think it's as simple as that, Aris. They are competent, they plan, assess, deliver. They get results to a degree. But, they most definitely have a comfort zone and the higher end is absolutely not in it.

To learn, not tolerance - damn you auto correct!

I think you're all missing the point. If pupils really want tolerance even a mediocre teacher can get them through school and gcses and a levels.

For some reason in this country swathes of teenagers don't want to learn - that is where the culture of under achievement problem lies!

They are not good teachers then.

Yes, I do think that makes a difference.

We're also a department with little movement in it; I am the youngest and the newest member of staff and I'm not particularly young!

My colleagues are good teachers. They can teach students to get Cs, even Bs. But beyond that, they do struggle.

What Eliot said.

If there's a culture of low expectancy, who the fuck is getting all these A*s they keep moaning about them?

Make your bloody mind up

That is sad, we are close to some well regarded training providers, maybe that is why we manage to recruit them.

Evil, we're recruiting now!

Aris, that's great, but in my experience is not at all typical of a typical department in a secondary school. I have a First from a RG (hate how snobbish that makes me sound) but I am often surprised at how basic teachers' subject knowledge is. It isn't just that they often don't know some things but there is a reluctance to find out. Too often, 'stretch and challenge' means 'provide extra work' when in fact it should mean engaging with ideas, principles and concepts we wouldn't expect a 'typical' twelve or fourteen year old to understand, but it is not enough to just provide the concept. The teacher has to teach it - but in my experience many cannot.

Cool. I'm on my way.

I teach history, we have a department of 5. Two of us have firsts and I think we all went to RG universities. One of us went to Oxbridge.

Within the Humanities faculty, which I know less well, I think there are about 6 of us with 1sts.

We have an Oxbridge team who coach our Oxbridge applicants, I think there is at least one representative from all of our faculties.

No evil but you can have a job at the school where I'm a governor

This describes my secondary school experience exactly.

My A Levels were AAB (back in the olden days) and I got a 2:1 from Warwick. Can I have a pay rise please?