There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

Please tell me you don't think the teacher was being serious? You aren't using this as an example of "low aspirations" are you?

it's not about the teacher not knowing the difference curlew

"Still don't get what you mean by 'Bloody hell, somebody didn't post this as a serious remark, did they??????'"

I meant "bloody hell, nobody actually thought that a teacher really didn't know the difference between somebody who makes coffees and a lawyer, did they?"

A few things strike me reading this. Firstly schools have been judged on progress from KS2 for about four years now, so whilst important to get Cs it is also important for pupils to achieve their potential grades. Here lies the second problem, the grades are not linear, so a pupil with a level 4A at primary will not necessarily be a 4A at secondary, this leads to parents thinking their child has dropped. Changing A, B, C grades to 8,7,6 will lead to further confusion.

At the secondary schools I know there are extra classes for boosters at all grades - I spent two days of half term holidays doing C/B boosters and there were C/D A/A* etc. running as well. I don't know many high schools in the north west where pupils are not set or streamed (at least in core subjects).

A lot of people seem to base their opinions on their own schooling or what they have read (which is always sensationalised worst case scenario). When I left school there were pupils with low literacy skills, who went on to do OK for themselves. For some pupils today literacy is still a struggle, no matter how much intervention is put in place. What needs to be produced is a system where education can suit each and everyone person from the academic to the none - pupils are feeling they are failing as they do not reach the magical C grade and it is this we should be looking at.

I think there certainly was at my school (a while ago now to be fair). I was in top set for everything except French and I distinctly remember the very different atmosphere in those French classes.

We were just not expected to be able to learn everything.

It was a bit of an eye opener really and helped me understand that outside of the 1/4 of pupils placed in the top set, the majority of the school population was experiencing a pretty poor level of education.

There was extremely low expectations for most pupils at my school, I would say.

Still don't get what you mean by 'Bloody hell, somebody didn't post this as a serious remark, did they??????'

I made a 'joke' about people speaking Latin in Latin America to a co-worker. A frend later told me that x was telling people how stupid I was. I suspect that the teacher telling the barrista joke had the same humour challenged audience.

married - I recently questioned someone's opinion and I got told that she had three postgrad degrees so I can shut the feck up! So when you said that your boss has three masters degrees, was that just to make a point or does he really have 3 master degrees?

I'm asking because I have a Msc in Finance and I have never met anyone that isn't in academia who has two masters let alone three. I find that it's a bit like having 20 GCSEs ie a bit pointless after the expected amount.

Just that is sounded like either an attempt at humour on the teacher's part that a serious minded teenager didn't get, or a teacher bashing urban myth. I'm pretty sure I've heard it before actually

curlew, I'm not sure I understand the point you are making in your Sat 15-Jun-13 10:02:45 post

Yes, Cecily- probably the same sort of %ages as now. 14 year olds have all sorts of levels of literacy - I suspect not much has changed. The past is often a rosy tinted place.

Well, I'm not sure that somebody with a C in GCSE would be "functionally illiterate", would they?

And, using my neighbour as an example, what would you suggest? She has the place on the course, there is plenty of work for people who complete the course- and she needs 4 Cs. She is smart, but not even remotely academically clever. She will only get the 4 Cs with lots of help and encouragement. Are you saying the school should not be providing the support?

I do wonder about all these "everybody's great grandparents were perfectly educated even though they left school at 14" claims. Is there actually any evidence to support this? What about all the adult illiteracy-!documents signed with shaky crosses and so on?

Depends how far you go back but when the school leaving age was 14, and previously 13, children of the full ability range left school at that age. So some people's parents, grandparents, and great grandparents would have been doing very well when they had to leave school and would have been very happy to have continued in education if they had had the opportunity. They would have continued reading and writing and practicing what they had already learned and, through reading, would have educated themselves. Other school leavers of the same age would have learned very little and been only too happy to have left school at the earliest opportunity. I think my PiL represented both ends of this spectrum.

But the point is that 4 Cks are useless if upon reaching the workplace or adult life in general the employee is functionally illiterate and innumerate in spite of having a GCSE certificate. If a C can be reached without instilling the ability to construct a grammatically correct sentence or convert a decimal or a fraction to percentage and understand the process of doing so what exactly is the use of the qualification. What is the point of tipping from a D to a C so the person can enrol onto a higher course they will find too difficult or will again have to be extra coached to pass. It inflates expectation and does not leave the young person equipped to follow a career path successfully once they are employed and judged on their actual capability.

I am sure it was a attempt at humour, though that might be lost on a teenager who has grown up thinking that it is perfectly normal to call someone who sells coffee, 'a barrista'. Perhaps you have to be of a certain age to find that play on words amusing.

In this case, I think hat sometimes the pushing is vital- I have a neighbour who has set her heart on, and has been accepted for, a course in harness making. She needs 4 Cs- and it will be a real achievement for her when (fingers crossed) she gets them. Her school is going all out to help her- and in my opinion it is a much better use of the teacher's time (assuming such choices have to be made) than applying similar resources to get another child from A to A*.

I can only agree with you there. I know some very selective 6th forms ask for an A at GCSE to do some A levels, but, as far as I know, none ask for an A*. And there are always other 6th forms who are less demanding in terms of prior achievement.

"Two generations ago nobody would have needed 4 C's for a vocational career"

Well, they do now, and schools have to operate in the now.

I do wonder about all these "everybody's great grandparents were perfectly educated even though they left school at 14" claims. Is there actually any evidence to support this? What about all the adult illiteracy-!documents signed with shaky crosses and so on?

Two generations ago nobody would have needed 4 C's for a vocational career. Nurses only needed 3 passes when I did O'Levels. Youg people without paper qualifications were still well educated. My gradparents did not have a single qualification (my granny didn't even go to school after the age of about 12 I think) but they had perfect grammar, granny in particular was like a human calculator and they were at ease conversing with anyone. The entire system is bonkers. At 11 or 12 both my DC could write more articulately than my boss who had three masters degrees!!

My children don't always get dry teacher humour either......

"Some of those C/D borderlines could well be very much on the D side of the border and could need considerable support to push them to the C side of the boundary. (Not sure if all this pushing is right though as results may not reflect children's true abilities)"

In this case, I think hat sometimes the pushing is vital- I have a neighbour who has set her heart on, and has been accepted for, a course in harness making. She needs 4 Cs- and it will be a real achievement for her when (fingers crossed) she gets them. Her school is going all out to help her- and in my opinion it is a much better use of the teacher's time (assuming such choices have to be made) than applying similar resources to get another child from A to A*.

I asked that pickled, and she was adamant he was serious. She is always quite shocked at the poverty of ambition amongst her friends, even one who is as bright as she is doesn't think university is for her.

""when she said barrister, the teacher asked if she wanted to work in Costa or Starbucks"

'twas just an attempt at humour, no?"

Bloody hell, somebody didn't post this as a serious remark, did they??????

"when she said barrister, the teacher asked if she wanted to work in Costa or Starbucks"

'twas just an attempt at humour, no?

Having produced children encompassing all the levels I am quite delighted that the C/D's are concentrated on and given extra help. Dd2 falls into this and the school has worked really hard with her this year, and it will hopefully mean she will be able to do the college course she wants to rather than one that will take her despite poor grades. However if the school had enthused and helped her earlier on they may not have been in this position now.

Dd2 (at a different comp) is very much A/A* material, and is stretched but we don't know if it will be enough or whether for A levels she should go to a very selective independent; that will be the subject of a whole new thread. One day she came home from school absolutely furious - they had been asked what job they were aspiring to and when she said barrister, the teacher asked if she wanted to work in Costa or Starbucks.

Ds (year 7) is at the same school as dd3 and is already having lots of extra help (both he and dd2 are dyslexic) so hopefully we will not end up in the same position as we have with dd2.

One problem I have noticed with my less academic children is the poverty of anything they can achieve in. Dd2 is very good at sewing so has taken textiles, but there is very little sewing involved and an awful lot of written work, which of course doesn't suit her, and exactly the same in food tech - at thirteen she could produce a three course meal for 12 (with 2 choices for each course), but this is completely irrelevant to the examining bodies. There must be a vast number of children feeling totally demoralised by the current education system.

I agree curlew that the really able children should not need so much extra help - just attending the normal lessons and putting in the right amount of effort should be enough. Some of those C/D borderlines could well be very much on the D side of the border and could need considerable support to push them to the C side of the boundary. (Not sure if all this pushing is right though as results may not reflect children's true abilities)

Looking at the bigger picture all countries need an educated elite who can compete for the top influential positions , provide innovation, create jobs for others and pay a lot of tax. In the UK the top 1% of earners contribute 25% of all taxes and 53% of the population take more than they contribute in taxes. If the top jobs are taken by non Brits we will not benefit from their taxes in he long term.