There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

Not exactly. Wayne with 3 A*s from Wakefield can contact the special Oxbridge provided liaison person allocated to his school and get more focused help than Hugo gets from the random person he rings at the boat club. He might choose to attend one of the special visit days when people from Wakefield in general go to visit certain colleges and courses, and he might get buddied up with a couple of students who can talk to him over a sandwich and a coke while he's there. Or his contact person might visit his school to give a targeted talk.

Hugo will however have the edge over Sally, whose non graduate parents worked their butts off in order that she might attend a very minor independent school in the sticks. She will leave with practically no useful contacts at all, and won't benefit from outreach aimed at state schools either.

"Children with laid back parents are more likely to be at SMs. Those mums are hardly going to be spending their free time discussing education."

!

Arisbottle - that's like saying that there is unfeasibly number of well off people in a forum talking about buying overseas property.

Children with pushy supportive mums are more likely to be at GS. Those mums are more likely to be in a forum discussing education.

Children with laid back parents are more likely to be at SMs. Those mums are hardly going to be spending their free time discussing education.

Simples.

I teach across the year groups classes between sets 1 and 5.

My best behaved class is set 5 year 10. The classes with require me to use my behaviour management skills the most are set 3 year 10 and set 2 year 9.

Mumzy
"have proper streaming for academic subjects"

Why do you believe that this will stop this happening?
I have seen many top sets disrupted by high ability pupils.

Why is there such a belief that high ability children are angels?

Agree with BM smaller schools maximum 1000 pupils including the sixth form

It is interesting that an unfeasably high percentage of mumsnetters have their children in grammar schools but I struggle to think of any mumsnetters beyond myself and one other who have their children in a secondary modern.

Arisbottle

LOL. :)

Change SM for bottom sets or council estates. The thinking is the same.

How I'd improve comps:Everyone attends the same school, have proper streaming for academic subjects. Smaller classes (20 pupils) for lower ability. Technical subjects to be taught ,such as catering, plumbing, car mechanics, construction, hairdressing ( there will always be demand for good hairdressers), as well as academic ones.

Arisbottle - that would be an insightful observation but for the fact that most MNetters don't live in SM areas.

Let's talk some home truths.

1. Most schools are too big, so kids get away with playing teachers and parents off in a way they wouldn't have done 50 years ago.
2. Some parents fail to discipline their children properly, and this group of kids causes havoc in some classrooms, disrupting learning for the others. There is a limit to how far teachers can change this alone, as out of the 128 hours in a week only 30 are spent at school, for 38 weeks a year.

1. So much time is spent on high stakes tests that high quality practical and empirical work goes out the window a lot of a time, which is the very stuff that most kids need to be doing to make the most progress. Especially bright kids.
2. Exam boards are too big, ungainly and profit driven to be trusted to do a good job properly any more.
3. Internationally, teacher assessment of pupils works for most countries. Our externally moderated exam system is anomalous globally, expensive, and pretty ineffective.
4. Despite all this we still have one of the best education systems in the world, statistically speaking, which amazes me really given how little we spend on some pupils, and the diversity of our population.

Everyone knows on MN that all of our children are bright and perfectly behaved, it is only those pesky kids in secondary moderns who have TVs in their room who misbehave.

No-one has mentioned the high ability kids that mess about, refuse to learn, and disrupt the learning of others.

But then I suppose that id because those posters that have those children believe that it is the teachers fault for not being entertaining enough

Eviltwins I guess they could say that the standard for A/A* is too low.

I was discussing this with some Year 11 students in school on Friday who quite frankly know much more than I ever did at their age and can analyse and evaluate ideas with much more complexity than I ever did at school. I am no genius but I went to a top university and achieved a 1st. As these boys have clearly been stretched more than I ever was I don't see how they have been dumbed down - and this is in a comp/ secondary modern.

No Curlew Some children need support to get motivated. Some don't. I see it as the country's job to do what we can to help all children achieve their potential. That doesn't mean all achieve top grades, but then, nor does it mean not 'pushing' the more capable but less motivated because we know they will "do alright". There are also a lot of highly motivated children who will never get high grades, but, we should still ensure they achieve what they can.

Talkinpeace - I went from a kent private school to grammar in 1971. It isn't a new thing and many families had spit provision for their children. Rather than reviewing entry to the grammars from private sector though how about the local primaries raise their game.

We moved to the area in 1967 when I was 7 and the good primaries were full so I was sent to a rivate school in broadstairs. Our local primary at that time had never got a child through the 11+ It still has a poor reputation.

We sent our DS to a top performig, best in borough local primary and moved him at 8 because his GandT needs were not being met. DD stayed until Y6 and went to a high performing state school. We moved her at the end of Y8 because the school was drifting (a school with 8/9 chasing evey place).

The state sector needs to significantly raise its game before the independent sector is lambasted.

It's interesting that people seem to think that bright children will only achieve their potential if they are "pushed" to.

The problem with threads like this one is that inevitably ends up an exchange of anecdotes.

The fact is that OFSTED and Gove cannot have it both ways - if too many students are achieving A/A grades, then how* can they assert that they suffer from the low expectations of their schools and teachers?

It's mind boggling.

Habba
I went to private school. I have nothing against private schools. I am not, and will never be, one of the people who thinks private schools should be abolished.

What I am against is taxpayer funds being used in selective faith schools and selective education schools.
When prep schools in Kent brag about getting 100% of their kids through the 11 plus, you know that grammar schools are not getting the brightest kids, just those with the most sharp elbowed parents.

I also firmly believe that a lot of the "culture of low expectation" in state schools is because idiots like Gove crap on teachers from a great height day in day out, move the goalposts on what they are teaching (introduction of the Ebacc being the prime example) and then bang on about league tables which have the artificial cliff of the grade C/D boundary.

Talkin - that was a bit of a non sequitur

I was just pointing out that you are usually quite dismissive of other people's experiences with schools that they are familiar with. Yes we know that your DH visits "100s" of schools but that doesn't invalidate what they have to say about their school.

I don't see what my views on private education has to do with the above observation.

racmum
Thornden do not. Its never seemed to harm their results.
Almost every other one I've ever heard about does - because it makes teaching saner.
A few stream but computerised setting software makes sets a sensible option.

Genuine question do comps put the kids into sets these days? Or does it depend on the school?

I went to a comp and we were split for maths, English and Science but that was it i was in the top set and those lessons were fine.. It was beyond a joke in some of the lessons- generally (not always) under achieving children are disputive and often seem as being 'cool'. Certainly at my school it was not cool to be clever. Also the teachers were so busy trying to get the naughty children to behave that the more able kids were not pushed at all!!

I kind of agree that if your in a big comp with its fair share of difficult teenagers, then the children that just behave and get on with it can easily over looked and not pushed to achieve their best so in that respect there is a culture of underachievement. Much depends on the school.

Complete sidetrack, but how has your son found the transition, Mitchdafish, from Steiner to mainstream, I mean.

DS is Year 7, previously at Steiner, his state secondary is very pushy indeed, all about targets, all the time. Boys from local vvpushy primary are switched off from learning and cynical, mess about a lot as far as I can tell, I think they have been overworked at primary.