There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

Crikey, this is not at all what ds (now in Year 9) has experienced.

He attended a good primary school, but was left to coast in middle sets when he was capable of more.

He then went to our local, huge, state comp. At this school children are continually assessed during Year 7 and then at the end of Year 7 he was streamed into set 1s and 2s (where 1 is top and 6 is bottom)

He is now coming to the end of Year 9 and so far has found his secondary school interesting and challenging, is really enjoying it and doing well.

Arisbottle I agree, most of DS2s friends are lower set or have problems at school, they've all been dismissed by the school as 'no marks', but they've all stayed here many times and they're really lovely decent kids.

I applaud you for taking time to encourage yours, our school can't be arsed, its heartbreaking.

rather and developing typos SORRY.

Eviltwins. It is very sad that your kids only see the negative and not the positive within University Education. they probably focus on the cost ra ther than what it can do for them not just in Education but in terms of delveoping them as people,are they aware that the way, paying back the fees work although expensive it should not be prohibitive.

We have businesses phoning us to offer us placements, the school has a good reputation locally, particularly for turning out well behaved and hard working young people , so we are often their first port of call.

My set 5 is quite small, about 12 students so it is easy to get attached to them that maybe you don't with set one. But students in set one work very hard too.

Do you feel more attached to them than to say kids in set1 or 2 because for the most part they are doing their best . When you say apprenticeships do you mean work placement on Further Education College Courses or full time Apprenticeships. Do you found it difficult to get business to take 16 yr olds on.

DD1's school streams - each year group has 8 classes, they are grouped by ability. DD is in the top one, which is a mix of L5 and L6 children. The most disruptive child in her class is off the scale bright in maths, hitting high L7s regularly. He is also a complete pain in the arse who hides other people's stuff, throws their pencils and pens on the floor, kicks them in the back when sitting behind them, pulls hair - you get the idea. There are several other children in the class who are also very bright but disruptive, high ability =|= good behaviour.

I have to say they do have high expectations of their top groups though, but then their intake is one of stark divides between very MC and very deprived.

BoffinMum is right in everything she says about the way school should be. In addition I am very unlikely to believe anything Gove and Wilshaw say, just because they are Gove and Wilshaw - evidence-free operators who use dodgy surveys to back up a point but ignore experts trained in education (these including teachers). I am also very unconvinced that Gove has anything but his future career at heart, plus of course handing the entire state education sector over to the private sector by stealth. A survey using a small sample of state schools is not evidence, and using SATs as the benchmark for failure is downright stupid as children are coached stupid for them.

I teach in a grammar area. My school is not, in my view, a secondary modern. There are 5 grammars in a huge area and really, a very small proportion of children get in. The only co-ed grammar of the lot is hugely competitive and friends with DCs at independent preps and primaries happily admit that they will try for this school before continuing with private schooling.

I don't believe that the children I teach suffer from low expectations in school. Over half of my yr 11s have made at least 5 levels of progress in my subject. BUT very few of our 6th formers take up the university places they are offered. We encourage them to apply, they get offers, then get cold feet and don't go. The low expectations are coming from home, in these cases, not school. The "university is not for the likes of us" attitude. It makes me sad.

Most of my set five students will go off to do apprenticeships and I say to them that as well as the fact that my subject is interesting this is their chance to show commitment and hard work , skills employers look for. There are a few in there who will get grade Cs and that will make a huge difference to their future post sixteen options and I make sure they know that.

Mainly I am just nice to them , students generally work hard if you are nice to them.

Arisbottle. What do you say to your set 5 y10 to keep their sprits up. I presume these would be D/E kids what careers do your advise them to take up. Do you tell them it will be difficult for them or do you try to be positive with them.

Can I just say that I have not gone on to any kind of greatness? As i said bog standard teacher in bog standard school. Where have I said that I have several post grad degrees. I watch toomuch crap on TV and spend too much time on here to manage that.

As some wise poster said upthread, threads like this inevitably turn into the battle of anecdotes. Everyone has a friend, sibling, DP who was brought up in a sink estate and non selective and went onto academic and professional greatness. Makes you wonder why others keep going on about the top uni places and jobs going to kids from selectives eh?

And why do these people always have several postgrad degrees. The only people I know that have two are uni academics. If you have three post grad degrees then aren't you a bit over qualified for a secondary school teacher?

We live on the edge of the grammar system, it is very different in the centre of the grammar catchment. Failing secondary moderns left right and centre, it is also a very socially divided place.

The grammars are also packed with children who went to prep schools, my son has never bought a friend home who comes from a good working class background like us. The free school dinner rate shows that grammars around here are about saving the middle classes from paying school fees rather than providing bright poor kids with a leg up. I might have more time for them if that was the case.

Even on the edge of the grammar school catchment my youngest daughter was bullied because she was not tutored and did not apply for the grammar.

I also see first hand that children of all abilities can be educated in the same building and it works, so why the need for segregation? If a bog standard teacher like me in a bog standard school like mine can manage it, I see no need for grammars .

This is a point that may only be the case in our area, but our local grammar schools are also know for providing a very dull, chalk and talk overly spoonfed form if education. I don't want that for my children.

I have also seen my own son being left to struggle in those subjects he is not as strong in, because he is not going to earn the grammar yet another A*, so they literally do not seem to care. He has attended revision sessions at my school because his own grammar were not interested in him.

marriedinwhite - "Hugo might also have a god parent who's vice chancellor at his first choice; another on the board of trustees at his second and a father who's remembered and takes pupils from his third."

Yes. In fact, my nephew is called Hugo and the close friends that his parents and aunts and uncles have currently working at Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard, HEC and Essec alone are in the dozens. Not sure that they know anyone at a a boat club, however

"Internationally, teacher assessment of pupils works for most countries. Our externally moderated exam system is anomalous globally, expensive, and pretty ineffective."

Hmm. I live in a country (France) where teacher assessment is extremely important (more so than it appears to most outsiders) and I disagree that it works. On the contrary, it creates all sorts of codes, networks and secret dealings - and hence unfairness.

And your point is ?

Ok, 'rarely the brightest' go into the grammar. In other words, GSs aren't siphoning off the brightest thus leaving a bunch of low achievers to populatr the SMs . So what's your problem with selectives then?

My stepson is a Wayne, he has had an Oxbridge offer despite the fact that his parents come from council estates, we are probably the most common people on the road and he did not go the grammar .

My second son, lets called him Kyle, is on his way to getting top A level results at the grammar and would I imagine have his pick of universities. I will admit that he goes sailing, as does DSS and fencing so he does mix with a few posh types , but they have not given him a golden ticket .

Daughter two, lets call her Waynetta about to sit GCSEs , again not at the grammar. Again she knows posh types from horsey events but no golden ticket

Hugo might also have a god parent who's vice chancellor at his first choice; another on the board of trustees at his second and a father who's remembered and takes pupils from his third . But that would be the case whatever type of school Hugo went to. It also helps if Hugo is terrifically bright. My very own xanthe isn't and will have none of those choices because entry is on merit.

DH went from the local comp and from the local comp moved onto those connections. Admittedly upward social mobility is harder than it was 35 years ago and that is wrong.

They aren't called hugo and xanthe btw but you get the message.

We are on the edge of a grammar school area, so some children go the grammar but not all who could. So we are a comprehensive by name but we do lose some children to the grammar - interestingly rarely the brightest. But I guess if there was no grammar we would be even more comprehensive,

So I am quite likely to be supportive of education and unlikely to be overly laid back, and yet most of my children are not at the grammar.

Although to be honest by MN standards I am positively horizontal so maybe I do prove your point.

... with a strange catchment. I mean you have comps and SM/GSs in your catchment?

But you are a teacher.

I've got two in a comp at the moment, btw. Eldest went private (boarding).

My children are at a comp/ secondary modern . I teach and am always on education threads here.