There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

Mumzy
"How I'd improve comps:Everyone attends the same school, have proper streaming for academic subjects. Smaller classes (20 pupils) for lower ability. Technical subjects to be taught ,such as catering, plumbing, car mechanics, construction, hairdressing ( there will always be demand for good hairdressers), as well as academic ones."

What about those that don't want to do catering, plumbing, car mechanics, construction, hairdressing?

Talkinpeace, your DH may well see over a 100 comps a year but I'm sure he doesn't get to spend much time in them. It took me 6 weeks of full-time working at our local 'highly regarded' comp to see what it was really like - needless to say, none of my children will be going there.

On one occasion when the whole of Y11 were assembled just prior to an exam there was a palpable 'tension' in the air with all the big male teachers drafted in like bouncers, 'afraid' to say anything to the equally big Y11's who were knocking back their 2 litre bottles of coke. I'm not sure what this says about the school and the state of education today BUT it definitely says something.

Mumzy wrote
How I'd improve comps:Everyone attends the same school, have proper streaming for academic subjects. Smaller classes (20 pupils) for lower ability. Technical subjects to be taught ,such as catering, plumbing, car mechanics, construction, hairdressing ( there will always be demand for good hairdressers), as well as academic ones.

Whoops. Comps already do all that .....

And why the bias against big schools?
Eton has 1300 pupils and it does not seem to cause a problem.

In a big school -over 1500 - there are economies of scale : pastoral support, facilities, numbers of specialised teachers
AND when the children are split into sets the ability bands within each set are narrower so children get taught at a rate appropriate for them.

I suspect my colleagues work harder than me, most teachers on MN work harder than me. In fact if I posted less on here I would get more done. So perhaps MN is the home of lazy procrastinating teachers. ( that is aimed at me, not anyone else)

you know this thing about mixed ability v streaming?
if they get Level 5 in mixed ability primary class Y6, how comes mixed ability Y7+ stops them getting top grades?

Habba - I find that quite insulting. The vast majority if my colleagues are committed to doing their absolute best for our students and those who don't pull their weight are being dealt with by SLT. I don't imagine they all waste their time on MN, though... To conclude that the teachers on these threads are not typical of secondary school teachers is quite an assertion!

I suppose I am saying that compared to maybe 30 years ago, schools are more accountable for the progress of each and every pupil. As a result, more schools attempt to challenge pupils.

Sprinkle - The fact that not all secondary schools have low aspirations does not by default mean that most schools try to stretch their children.

The MNetters posting to this thread aren't necessarily a representative sample of the population. I mean, if you was an apathetic teacher then would you be spending your free time on a forum discussing education issues? Of course you wouldn't. So the anecdotes from the teachers about how their charges are challenged and motivated should not be taken as typical of secondary schools.

It's a bit like having a forum about second holiday homes and concluding that most of MNetters are rich based on that forum.

It will be interesting to see how reports like this one change when national curriculum levels are dropped. At least, at the moment, secondary schools have some kind if measure, albeit sometimes unreliable, of a child's previous attainment. If a child comes to my school with L2 in KS2 (unusual but not unheard of) then their GCSE targets are Ds. Once the NC levels are gone, will it be assumed that all are capable of "top" grades, or will secondary schools have to waste time on baseline testing in Yr 7?

So most people on the thread tend to disagree with the report. I think most schools do try to stretch all pupils these days. I do think that low level disruption makes this hard sometimes though, and there can be apathy amongst many pupils, even though good qualifications have never been more important.

In a episode of The Big Bang Theory the gang noticed that Harold would take any conversation and steer it towards the fact that he had been up in space.

Well, I'm getting the same feeling about Xenia and how women should aim at earning loads. For the time being I am deeming it to be 'funny'.

We chose paid selective schools as I earn enough to pay fees.
Apparently state schools do SATs (most private schools do not and none of my children did them) and chilren are coached above their level so the SATs results may not be the best indicator so not surprising some of those coached at primary beyond an inch of their life so not do that well in GCSEs. It is a bit like coaching a child to get into a selective school at 11. If you coach (we didn't) then you might get in despite not really being able to keep up with the standard.

On university debt es they are talking about reducing the income level down to I think £18k form £23k earnings before you start to repay it. They change the rules all the time. I paid the fees of my children and that of course nowadays is a risk because if they never earn over those levels they would not have had to pay any back but I am still glad that I did and it shows why it is worth women having high paid careers rather than just following their dream to paint stones or whatever might float their boat. If you pick a sensible career as a woman you can ensure your children graduate debt free.

marking space

Eviltwins-of course the change their minds- as soon as the realisation of the amount of debt they will end up with sinks in....

beatback i know, luckily DS1 completed uni the year before fees were raised, although we were shocked to discover interest started on his loans from the month he started the course.
We ignore it, but i can imagine most people would be put off by so much debt.

The other problem is once completed, paid internships are impossible to find, so unless the family can financially support post grad for a while, you're buggered in that direction too.

Apologies if it sounded as if I was mocking people who overcame economic and social adversity. I was simply trying to make the point that we all have such anecdotes but this doesnt invalidate the comments of those who would criticize non selectives.

To answer your point we bank on about it because I know that most people from my background don't get to go to university, especially not a top one. I have had two work twice as hard as as most of the people around me to get to the same place.

Sorry, I was confused , maybe because I don't have several postgraduate qualifications.

I am not sure there is such a thing as over qualified for teaching though , although there are other professions which tend to be better qualified.

Arisbottle - I was referring to people in 'threads like this' as opposed to you specifically.

Jellkat. Yes it is a big debt but affordable. The way kids have got to think of at as a Insurance Policy that they will only start paying for when they can. Or a extra form of N.I, if they can forget the actual amount owed and think is it worth £15-£20 a week maximum pay back . They could see a reason to go.

I didn't go to university - as I have said upthread I wasn't regarded as university material. I desperately want our dC to go though and they have been told they should go from birth.

I think the high fees are a deterrent. For my part, I don't trust this government, or any future government, not to 1) raise fees further, or 2) change the repayment terms. In fact this has already been mooted - one of the things this government said when raising fees was 'but we'll also raise the earnings threshold for repayment'. Now they're talking about bringing it back down again. Is it any wonder young people don't want to take the risk?

I'm going to encourage my DDs to study abroad - there are many very well regarded universities in countries where fees are much lower and where the courses are taught in English.

and fear of enormous debt beatback

It has to be family pressure that talks them out of going to University. If family members keep saying "I NEVER WENT TO UNIVERSITY AND IT DID ME NO HARM" or "HOW ARE YOU GOING TO LIVE WITHOUT A FULL TIME JOB" "DO YOU THINK YOU WILL WALK STRAIGHT IN TO A JOB". These are just a few things they probably hear from friends and family a like.

It's very sad. I blame the media (cliche) but honestly, it pisses me off. The excitement in their faces when they get offers from the universities they want to go to is great. Then something happens, and they decide they can't go. One boy is predicted A grades in his A Levels, wants ultimately to join the police force, has a place at university to study Forensic Science. Is going to work in Argos. Another, fantastic student- House Captain, fabulous with mentoring younger students, plays football to county level. Has offers from universities to study Business Management. Has accepted a job at junior level in a local insurance company. I could go on...