There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

How do you know I don't have a PhD?

Slagging me off because I teach drama in a comp isn't very kind, is it?

Especially given your poor grasp of grammar.

wordfactory you are so right about teachers being asked to do too many things.

arisbottle I totally agree with you re private schools - and let's not forget that apart from having a pool of parents who are clearly committed to their child's education (and so will push/support them in the home), offering small classes, extra activities and so on, these schools are also able to 'manage out' children who will drag down their scores. They can set their own rules about who they accept for A-levels and don't have the same restrictions placed on them in terms of dealing with disruptive pupils that the state sector has.

Lastly, I think there are more important things than money. just as arisbottle has said. I'd like my DDs to have jobs they enjoy, which pay them a wage that leave them materially comfortable, but I also want them to have a life. There's a balance to be struck, and each of us has to find what that balance is for us.

Evil - if you was a PhD in Education or a member of an education policy think tank or the author of some definitive book on the subject then I can understand your shut the feck up about something I clearly know more about than you put downs. But correct me if I am wrong but you teach drama at a comp/SM. That hardly raises you to the the level of She Who Cannot be Challenged. And why do you get to slag off people several levels above your pay grade and me a mere parent can't challenge your comments?

As for my so-called trouble stirring remarks, if you was some lazy apathetic teacher then you most likely wouldn't be hanging out on a forum about education. So of course all the teachers that post here will be the committed types and of course their views may not representative of all teachers.

So all that you can say is that of the teachers that you know, all are committed professionals.

I mentioned the negative threads about teachers only to make the point that it is naive of you to adopt the attitude that bad teachers are few and far inbetween.

And since when did teachers become a revered profession. We ate allowed to discus and criticize priests, cops, soldiers, doctors but OMG did Habba just criticize teachers? Shock! Horror!.

So Aris, do you think that state school students are less likely to be motivated by money and therefore less likely to consider university? Or that they are less likely to have an understanding of money?

I grew up in a house with two teachers, both of whom had grown up in houses without much spare cash. As a consequence, both my parents were careful with money, and I didn't really get a sense of ever being "short" of cash. I now teach and earn about 3 times less than DH, who grew up in a house with a father who was very motivated by money (off the point, but I remember being mortified when my parents met the in-laws and FIL asked my DF about how much he earned).

My students are put off university by the thought of debt, but can't see the long-term financial gains, despite the programmes put in place in school and the information given to them at student finance talks. Do you think that independently educated students are less worried about such things? Or that money has never been an issue at home so they are not used to taking it into consideration?

I think that if you are privately educated your family is almost certain to have a higher than average income. Your children will probably have a very high standard of living and will want to maintain that lifestyle into their own adulthood. Therefore they are likely to choose a high paying career .

My own children are state educated and although I am a teacher they are unlikely to choose teaching as a career because they have been raised with a lifestyle that a teaching career alone could never afford . They will choose high paid careers, not because of the education sector they come from but because of the lifestyle they want and already have.

However if your children are state educated, it is more likely that you have a lower income and therefore your children may be satisfied with less financially . This reflects on their home life , not their education.

Many teachers are also not particularly money motivated, they probably could earn more doing something different . I know I am a controversial figure in school for reminding students of the importance of looking at how much a job pays when choosing a career. Many of my colleagues stress vocations, making a difference , job satisfaction etc. Therefore if money is not a big thing in school or at home , again certain students are less likely to pick high paying careers, I suspect this is more of an issue in state schools again .

Though xenia it may be that the best thing one can do for one's DC is to be rich!

I suppose it proves you are right to pay school fees if you can afford it as the university results are about the same (and 50% of those at the best universities come from the 8% of children at fee paying schools) and even later the privately educated earn more for a huge range of reasons.

I'd be interested to know how they define private school and state school kids.
Round here, because the 6th form colleges are rather good, lots and lots of kids go to private till 16 and then to state for A's - a few go the other way

but all of those reports miss the big point that because private schools are by definition selective, higher proportions of their kids will make it to A levels and beyond than state school kids

I wondered if it might be that sort of thing- more likely that an independently educated graduate would have the contacts or the financial cushion to be able to explore those avenues.

The report cited soft skills, networking etc...but what also sprung to my mind was the rise of the unpaid internship!

The new ones are Cardiff & Oxford Brookes. It doesn't go into the specifics if graduate employment and salary, but yes, I imagine you are right, and this possibly ties back in with the OP- did the previous report site anything as reasons for the later success of independently educated students?

The report earlier in the year was from Bristol University.

That said, I'm sure the current data will be similar.

pointy
I think most of the problems with teachers lie in the fact that they are being asked to do too damn much!

The teachers that I come across as a governor, are being asked to meet unrealistic targets in a school already struggling with huge social issues.

Plus there is the issue of it being very difficult to get rid of crap teachers, an issue that their colleagues find every bit as galling as the governors, parents and pupils!

Sorry- my misunderstanding. This is new data though, not based on the report from earlier in the year.

Who said the Observer created the report?

The Observer didn't create the report, they just reported it. There were two separate reports, both from universities.

As for the Observer, I think earler this year they reported that 88% of state schooled grads achieved a 2:1 or better. Wheras 85% of independently schooled grads did.

That said, the Observer also went on to point out that this academic superiority didn't translate in the job market where 74% of independently educated grads went on to either professional/high status positions compared to 58% of state schooled grads.

The starting salaries were not comparable either, with a 3k difference between the sectors.

There is no link between MN and teachers. Habba has no idea whether the views expressed here are typical or not. I don't believe there is much point joining a debate without evidence or experience with which to justify your opinions. This isn't a WWYD or an AIBU, it's asking for reasoned opinions about something pretty important. Maybe that's just the teacher in me though.

And yes, of course there are poor teachers and schools around. There always have been. In the past these have not been tackled because there were low-skilled jobs for people to go to. Now that is no longer the case, and so these schools are held to account, which is good.

I have my doubts as to whether Gove and Wilshaw are the people to do it, though.

The fact that there are threads on MN complaining about teachers isn't necessarily a proportional reflection of the general awfulness of teachers. People are more likely to speak out when they are unhappy than when they are content or particularly pleased. For every 'Oh my DC's teacher is so awful' thread there are likely to be multiple 'my DC is very happy with their teacher' threads existing in potentia but not materialising on MN, because people just don't tend to go on a forum like this to tell the world everything is just fine.

Think about it - how many times have you gone on MN to say you've had great customer service somewhere? The complainers tend to be far quicker to speak out, so what you see on MN is unlikely to be a fair representation of people's opinions of their teachers.

Evil all Habba did was point out that MN is not representative of the nation. I think we all know that to be true don't we?

And I think she's right. A thread like this of course will attract committed teachers in the state sector. No one's going to be arsed to come on and declare themselves a bit rubbish are they?

And yet common sense dictates there are rubbish teachers!

Yet by saying that she attracted your ire. You said she had no business being on the thread. You tried to shut down debate.

It was this that caused her questioning your capabilities as a teacher!

Yoy are entitled to your opinion. No one has said otherwise. Certainly not Habba. The only person telling anyone they have nothing to contribute is you!

Can't link as am on phone, but it was in the Observer.

And yet mumzy, two separate reports published today say that stare school children do better at university than their independently educated peers.

Hit send too soon... The committed teachers who were commenting on the thread were hardly representative. I pointed out that this is somewhat insulting. Which it is.

Oh dear. The point I was trying to make is that Habba has turned up on the thread, said that the comments of those who disagree with the report are not representative of state schools, given not evidence, trashed other people's views as anecdotal, then used the fact that there are other threads on MN about DCs having a poor time at school as hard evidence that there are crap schools and teachers out there. Yes, she's entitled to an opinion, but hell, so am I.

It would be nice to take part in a discussion with people who evidence/ experience to back up their views, and don't resort to predictable "gosh, I find it hard to believe you're a teacher..." tactics. It's an overused trump card that's not available to anyone else.

Habba first appeared on this thread to say that the committed teachers who were comment