Winchester College Open Day

HG - yes first RC since reformation?
WC could and should do better with RS. In today's climate, it is not helpful to produce fiercely non-religious boys. Not about religion at all but harmony. Another contradiction: they question anything and everything, many question the concept of religious faith but atheism is for many taken as is, no questions needed.

I wish Eton and Winchester would offer weekly boarding like others such as Westminster ...as well as the full boarding option ....at least where the boys could come home on a Saturday after sports/matches and go back on a Sunday eve ...especially if Sundays could be a bit dull! But I can't see it happening ...they are too wedded to the full boarding ethos, but I think they are losing some English pupils because of it.

"WC is not short of contradictions within"
Hundreds of contradictions thats just the way it is.

The head is a RC.

"One question about weekends: are boys required to stay at school Saturday after their classes and activities?"
They are not allowed home on Saturday even for a special occasion they have Div prep on Sat. evening but they are allowed home on Sunday after chapel. The Sundays alternate, X and Y, the houses are in two groups so for example in some houses on a Y Sunday they can leave about 9 30 ish after chapel but on an X Sunday I don't think they can leave till after 11 (we obviously don't pick up our DS up on that Sunday) for the other houses it will be the other way round and all have to be back by 9 - 9 15.
Does that make sense?

"unlike SPS which, despite its name and origins, seems almost militantly secular"
One of its big attractions for us it looked like no chapel would be built in the new rebuilding programme but sadly they've bowed to pressure!
I think first and second years have to go to Chapel three times a week third years twice week and the top two years may get away with just Sundays. Its a hotly contested and well documented issue at Win Coll many boys are very vocal in their objections to compulsory chapel.
For non CofE theirs and RC option and a multi faith meeting.

WC is not short of contradictions within. Please don't shoot me for saying this, but my impression is that when it comes to religion, WC is shallow but Eton is not. WC head is very religious (taught theology in his past). Heard that one year, someone suggested to him that WC should recognise atheism. The conversation apparently did not end well.

IndridCold: That was exactly the language used! But the follow on had more to do with practising it until they can do it in their sleep or along those lines. We were shocked.

Juststarting. Boys can't be away until after Chapel on Sundays AND they have handed in their Div homework. On X-sundays, that is close to midday, on Y-sundays, that is about 1030. Saturday toytime is compulsory. HMs can make rare exceptions but they are rare. The policy is please don't ask. Chapel and other services is a bit odd since many dons and lots of boys are atheists or agnostic, and the boys can be fierce in defending that.

Hi -- thanks for so many interesting and insightful posts! I feel like I'm getting a tutorial in secondary (boys' boarding...) education!

A few observations: someone I know who attended WC and has a son there and is on some sort of WC governing board mentioned a while ago that they do set limits on the number of boys they take from overseas. I'm not sure if it's a formal target or just an objective to maintain a balance. Another friend who comes from a long line of Old Etonians and has a son currently there told me Eton has changed dramatically in its intake since his time ... and now there are many Asians, in particular among the Kings Scholars (is that the correct term?)

One question about weekends: are boys required to stay at school Saturday after their classes and activities? Or can they go home (if they wish) and do their Saturday "prep" at home and stay through Sunday? The housemaster who showed us around said they "could leave as long as they fulfill their religious obligations" and then recited some gobbleygook about different types of Sundays (different letters....) and different church service times, etc which seemed completely irrelevant. (He really was very unimpressive!!!)

And another question: the hm's comments about "fulfill religious obligation" said in a rather offhand way seemed to minimise the importance of religious observance. One of the attractions of WC to me is that it seems to be still steeped in the CoE and has a Christian ethos (unlike SPS which, despite its name and origins, seems almost militantly secular).

How many Eton and Winchester students go on to study maths or physics (Nat Sci) at Oxbridge? Are there statistics given anywhere?

I'm just curious as I am an academic in maths/physics and I have come across very few at Cambridge from those two schools - most Etonians and Wykehamists I have known were studying law, economics etc. The only Wykehamists I can think of in maths and physics are a faculty member in Cambridge pure maths (Shepherd-Barron) and Freeman Dyson (a long time ago).

I suspect few super selectives teach to the test they leave this too the less selective schools aspiring for a whole pile of A*'s. My DS could get an A at Maths GCSE at 11 as I'm sure could many at both Eton and Win Coll this obviously leaves plenty of time to "off test". The only thing is that at WC for the whole five years they are there there is a daily Div lesson which does not end in a formal exam either IGCSE or Pre U and History and Eng Lit are not formally examined subjects until Pre U so the dons have a lots more freedom to go completely off test.
I aslo understand that the nature of the Pre U means its much easier and maybe even essential to go "off test".

The masters do tend to say things like 'This is what is needed for an A, A*', to reassure parents I suppose, but they then go on to describe all the other things they teach, and extra areas which are covered. I am sure that this is the same at Winchester too.

Both schools have to ensure that pupils achieve top grades in the public exams, yet these results don't truly reflect what extra stuff the boys are capable of. There was a letter to this effect in the paper on Sunday.

I understand that in my DS's year A set/top set maths (which I notice the boys use as a measure of how clever you are) comprises of virtually all from the far East. So it would appear Kumon maths has not just advanced their knowledge but made them bloody good at maths as well!

It is very much only an impression from visiting, going through the process and a few who are and had been there. May well be way off the mark and certainly not stating it as fact.

I do not want to hijack a Winchester thread, and I cannot comment on WC teaching but it would certainly not be accurate to say that Eton only teach to the test.

Off topic on Winchester but interesting to compare different generalisations, I think of Indian sub-continent education/background paying a lot more focus on Maths and physics but much less so than say grade 8 at piano than Chinese....creative out of the box maths is I guess what is needed for maths at Oxbridge - very different from GCSE or A level...I have no particular desire to say one Eton or Winchester is better than the other...it depends on what suits a boy...but I would have thought the fact that they produce roughly equal percentages to Oxbridge means one is not just taught to the test at Eton, as Oxbridge looks for much more than that and more than just "top grades" at A level since so much is based on Oxbridge's own test for say maths and interview.

IME the same "Far East" emphasis also happens to those with less developed countries background (Africa, FSU come to mind). I guess it is easy to aim for things with measurable performance and linking them to future prospects that more fuzzy ones like drama, art, DT and so on. Even instrument playing is measurable which may explain the multiple instruments at diploma levels, but rarely composition.

I think the generalisation is largely accurate in that there is a tendency and an expectation to be taught and fed knowledge rather than learn. There is a diverse "Far East" at WC though, many have mixed nationality/race parents, quite a few UK/EU nationals with family working/living in Asia, and the real Asians. Many would have done Kumon for example, but having been fed fairly advanced knowledge is not the same as being good as maths, it is fascinating that many of them find the Election maths papers very hard. WC insists that they are at worst CE standard which I think is entirely accurate.
Interesting also to see that pretty much all at WC end up questioning and pushing boundaries. My impression of Eton was the opposite in that they are even a touch proud of feeding and teaching enough contents and techniques to get the top grades.

"At the risk of gross generalisation, I think the Far Eastern background means much more emphasis (by the parents also) on the cerebral and maths, and reaching advanced levels in music and chess"
Many generalisations are true and I think this one might be! Although in fairness many "Far East" children play at least 1 if not 2-3 instruments to a very high standard and there are certainly lots of "Far East" boys participating in my DS's s main choice of sport. Maths/further Maths and by extension physics are very very big at Win Coll and I understand very popular with the many of the boys but especially those from the "Far East" who are usually the best mathematicians.

"By scholarly, mean rightly or wrongly, it seemed to be much more orientated on the cerebral and quirky and dare i say it, a bit more introverted in the boys it attracts than the all roundedness that some other boarding schools promote."
Probably a fair description of my DS who's very quirky although not introverted but reserved there is a difference, not a team sports player and a bit of a lone wolf doing his own thing pursuing his own interest hence it works. Interestingly I would say from talking to him recently he's become more reserved and more of a lone wolf since being at Winchester perhaps he feels no need to make himself into something he isn't (IMO the root of his unhappiness at his prep).

"My other reservation is that since Winchester don't let boys home as much as some other boarding schools do, they really should not be suffering from dull weekends at 34 k a year, given also here is no compulsory sports."
I dont think the problem arises on Saturday but Sunday definitely could be better we feel under pressure to go and get him especially in the winter although unlike many boarding schools they are free to go the cinema which is just round the corner but not exactly a multiplex.

At the risk of gross generalisation, I think the Far Eastern background means much more emphasis (by the parents also) on the cerebral and maths, and reaching advanced levels in music and chess and less so on the other arts, or drama...and an education that invites less creative opinion forming or questioning than a Western one.

The entrance exam is certainly harder than CE especially the Latin math and French oral although currently no pass mark is required just a good showing although I wonder if this will change. IME small preps don't have suitable staff/rescourses to teach to the level required for the Latin/Math.

HG - My DS is clever (at a few subjects but not all) but not intellectual - perhaps that is it then and why you preferred Winchester ...he came away from Eton tour wanting to go there ....but at Winchester - despite meeting dons and having a more personal tour, he seemed to have no particular opinion on the place! By scholarly, I mean rightly or wrongly, it seemed to be much more orientated on the cerebral and quirky and dare i say it, a bit more introverted in the boys it attracts than the all roundedness that some other boarding schools promote. Given my DS likes to run around a lot at whatever sport (albeit he is not top sporty type) and socialise (though I do worry that is just to many 13 year olds in a single small dorm, especially of one or tow dominate, I would prefer two to a dorm for the first year), perhaps it's just not the place for him. As I said, I don't know if I have the right impression - what I have learned from these school tours is it is so subjective and any pre-conceived notions about a place can quickly change - so I am going by gut feel as well as reputation and prep HM's guidance. My other reservation is that since Winchester don't let boys home as much as some other boarding schools do, they really should not be suffering from dull weekends at 34 k a year, given also here is no compulsory sports.

Sorry HG, bad choice of word, "too difficult" meaning that many are put off by the myth that the entrance exams are just too challenging. No, totally with you about the caring and nurturing environment, especially for an all boys environment.
AnnaBBB, I think it goes a bit beyond the Oxbridge count and exam results though. There is often a discernible difference between the attitude and perspective of Etonians and Wykehamists generally speaking. Horses for courses as you said. Some may do well in either, but they will be molded differently and their values are quite different. For other school, that may not be so obvious, but it is for these two.
As for Far East, it is fair to say that regardless of nationality or race, quite a few boys had "far east" education before. Probably fair to say that those which that exposure tend to value the academic side far more than anything else. Perhaps that explains the attraction to families who are either currently there or had spent time there. Pure speculation of course. Unsure if there is a quota, but just noticed that there are different procedures for admissions for those applying from Asia, again just based on where they live rather than nationalities.
HG, I doubt if WC or its houses would do anything about Sundays. The short version is that they all defend the concept of free time being free. Not a bad thing, just could be better every now and then.

AnnaB HM's close their lists when they have about 30 on them all on the list get pre tested.
"you can always arrange Skype video call with home once in a while if you are homesick or parents/grandparents just misses you and wants to say hello!"
My DS who does have a lap top but doesn't Skype me he txts or calls (usually once a week if he's not too busy) but then he's been full boarding since he was 7 and I think we've jut got a different mindset to those who aren't used to full boarding and these are teenage boys many of whom are pretty monosyllabic when talking to their parents and who hopefully have many more interesting things to do than Skype their parents all the time.

"Winchester may be best suited for certain more intellectual types,"
When we first started looking at senior schools we were primarily interested in SPS but my DS's form teacher recommended Win Coll to us for exactly that reason. Her DS had looked at both Eton and Winchester she said he was very clever but not intellectual where as she felt my DS was not only very clever but also very intellectual.
it just seemed too "scholarly" and cloistered for boys so young as 13
I'm curious to know what you mean by this.
"it still gets the same percentage into Oxbridge as Eton"
I dont know what the figures are I thought Win Coll sent a fraction more (not that it really matters) but they do achieve more A*'s or equivalent at the much harder Pre U 0ver 50% more again not that matters either and more are going abroad (mainly to the Ivy League) I wonder if this reflects the increasing number of pupils from the Far East.

I agree Eton has better facilities and as you said is definitely more 21st century I personally don't like single rooms I think it can be very lonely I've recenly heard of quite a few struggling to settle Eton. I recntly asked my DS about dorms and he will tell you its in the dorms that friendships are made and often with boys who they may not have not been naturally drawn too although I do agree they are small and privacy is at a premium.
'whereas I have walked away from other school tours, wanting to fill in the forms as soon as I got home."
We all want different things and no one school/person is right I walked away from Eton thinking I wouldn't put the dog into it let alone my DS but I am perfectly aware that its a very good school and many many love it. In fact SPS and Win Coll aside (God knows why becasue they are like chalk and cheese) having trotted round quite a few in my time there were no others I would even consider I'd rather have turned to the state and used the spare cash to to enrich his education.
"I don't know if there is any limit of percentage of overseas at any boarding schools"
I doubt it.