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Original poster

Has anybody successfully tutored for the 11+ completely by themselves(need reassurance)

261 replies

Blueskiesandbuttercups · 27/05/2013 16:39

DS year 4 desperately wants to go but we can't afford tutoring.He is bright,driven and I was a teacher so in theory it shouldn't be too hard.

His friend is also going for it but they're well off so tutoring and have already started.Ds is nagging me to get started.

Sooo went on the 11+ forum typed in the school to order books and I'm already in a pickle.They cost £££££ so need to get it right. We like CPG but loads are listed we haven't heard off. Would it be ok to just go with Bond and CPG or should we go with exactly those listed?

Is it possible to do this ourselves or am I deluding myself? If I screw this up I'll feel like shit- forever! Need lots of reassurance.

OP posts:
seeker · 06/06/2013 11:19

As many people have pointed out before, it doesn't necessarily cost much- if any - actual cash money to adequately prepare a child for the 11+. What it does take is awareness, confidence, time, space, literacy, at least some education and the inclination.

Which is why the system is inherently unfair, the playing field can never be levelled, and why the only equitable thing to do is to get rid of state selective education in the few places it remains, and replace it with properly setted comprehensive education.

HabbaDabba · 06/06/2013 11:11

Blue - I have more money than you. You have more money than some mum living on benefits. You don't believe that I should use my money to buy my DCs an advantage over yours but you seem to have no problems using your money to buy an advantage over benefit mom's DC.

Bit of double standards creeping in there, don't you think?

Original poster
Blueskiesandbuttercups · 06/06/2013 11:01

But Habba it's easy,pull your dc out of private and put them into state education if you don't think it's fair re tax.

Gs are state schools for state kids.

Re the advantage of having an educated parent you're right it is an advantage but at the end of the day the fact you can't legislate for everything doesn't mean you shouldn't try with some of it.

OP posts:
HabbaDabba · 06/06/2013 10:50

Blue - You being a teacher gives your DC an advantage over some kid whose mum is uneducated. You having the money for an after school club gives your DC an advantage. Having money for 11+ books gives you an advantage etc etc etc.

In anycase, I most likely pay more tax than you. Moot point I know but if you want to ban my kids from applying to a state selective then I like a tax rebate please :)

Original poster
Blueskiesandbuttercups · 06/06/2013 10:25

But a private education makes you a privately educated child and gives you advantages above and beyond everybody else(tiny classes,better resources,no commitment to the NC so time to teach to the 11+ in the school day etc).

Gs are state schools,for state children,surely if you want to be part of it you should be a state educated child.

You can never legislate for parents tutoring,it will happen however much we gnash our teeth.Tutoring after school when kids are knackered isn't as much as an advantage as in school tutoring but it is still an advantage.Anybody who has the cash will use it,ditto the brains (although as I've found out it's bewildering even for teacher parents to wade their way through it and books still cost money).

Sooooo you need to make sure all have the same advantages.I don't think clubs would cost much.As I said teachers are expected to run after school clubs(I did all sorts) for free.Having said that a small amount of PPA time would be helpful but really you're just giving out material and teaching exam technique so a shed load of prep and making wouldn't be involved.Re cost I'd pay a £1 a session,those that couldn't surely it could be dealt with the same as fsm children and school trips/meals etc.

My kids are seriously unsporty and don't benefit from the amount of money and time spent on school fixtures a few go on so clubs benefitting a few isn't an argument

Maybe kids at crap schools should get some bonus points too.

If state run gs are going to exist we can't just pretend they don't and not attempt to make entry a level playing field.

OP posts:
seeker · 06/06/2013 09:10

Difficult. i don't think school resources go into coaching for the 11+- and if parents have to pay we're back to square one. And while I would cheerfully abolish private education Grin, you can't take away a tax payer's right to a state education.

HabbaDabba · 06/06/2013 08:52

Blue - It sounds like you want to fix the system so that it favours you as opposed to making it fairer.

While we are at it, why not ban kids whose parents use to be teachers? After all, they have an advantage over other kids. But wait, didn't you use to be a teacher? Grin

The tutoring club has my vote thugh. Not so sure about the 'should' part. If you are a parent whose DC is struggling with maths/English do you really want to see scarce resources going towards tutoring bright kids for GS exams? Not very fair is it?

Original poster
Blueskiesandbuttercups · 06/06/2013 07:10

I think any primary school in a gs area should be made to provide a tutoring club once a week for year 5s and gs should provide parent info packs for people like me.All school have long lists of clubs and most teachers are expected to do one a week. With extra PPA I don't think it would that onerous a task.

I also think a ban on privately educated entries would be prudent.

You can never make it completely fair or get rid of the tutoring game so best to beat them at their own game imvho.

OP posts:
seeker · 05/06/2013 14:01

"I don't know that a system where tutoring is effective, is all that unfair?"

Not at all unfair. Unless you think that children should have an equal crack at a grammar school place whatever background they come from.

LaQueen · 05/06/2013 13:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Marni23 · 04/06/2013 15:46

blueskies not sure which area you're in but if the Reasoning papers are set by GL Assessment, IPS do a starter set of papers designed for younger children (9-10 I think). The IPS papers cover exactly the same question types as GL Assessment so are useful practice. Bond Reasoning papers are ok in the early days but don't cover all the GL types and include types that won't come up.

If you are in a GL assessment area, look at 'Patricia's' method of preparing for VR on the elevenplusexams website. That will give you a clear programme of preparation, including which papers to use in which order.

If you're not in a GL assessment area, ignore all of the above!

Original poster
Blueskiesandbuttercups · 04/06/2013 14:08

Thankyou!

Will see if Amazon has that assessment book.

OP posts:
seeker · 04/06/2013 14:07

The assessment papers are full 45/50 minute papers- the 10 minute ones are just quick papers- really good for filling in spare moments.

seeker · 04/06/2013 14:05

There is a Bond book which has assessment tests in it so you can find out where you start. I would really do that first. I wish I could remember whwt it's called- maybe somebody else will know? You don't want to over face him- but you don't want to start too easy either. And don't forget Nintendo Brain Training.

Original poster
Blueskiesandbuttercups · 04/06/2013 13:58

Don't worry about me I've had some fantastic advice,interesting discussion.

Still trying to decide which books and ages. Confused

What is the difference between Bond assessment papers and 10 minute tests?There is simply masses of Bond stuff(they see parents coming don't they). Will get a couple of Eng,maths and VR each but not sure which?CPG a lot more straight forward and less to confuse me with.

You think 8-9 to start this summer hol for a just finished year 4 child yes?

OP posts:
seeker · 03/06/2013 22:18

"Bread, this thread derailed long ago..."

But rapidly gets back on track when then OP asks something.

hardboiled · 03/06/2013 21:15

Oh yes Yellowtip! I was just merely stating that there are no "VR and NVR tests immune to tutoring effects" and there will never be. That's why IQ tests are a joke. Because no human activity in this life is immune to practice and preparation.

Bread, this thread derailed long ago...Smile

Yellowtip · 03/06/2013 20:51

hardboiled too much practice without additional learning or anything extra to interest them is bad though surely?

breadandbutterfly · 03/06/2013 19:11

Irrelevant discussion to the thread - the OP stated that her dc would be doing VR, Maths and English. Clearly one can teach maths and English and improve, or what are our dcs doing up to GCSE and possibly beyond?

So her dc's performance will definitely improve with help from parents or private tutoring.

The question asked was whether a parent can tutor those subjects as well as a paid-for tutor can.

The answer is yes, parents can. There are many excellent resources online and in books for parents who wish to try. Some are free; even poor parents can help.

hardboiled · 03/06/2013 19:02

There is nothing in this world that practice won't improve.

Marni23 · 03/06/2013 18:20

NFER (who set most of the VR/NVR tests) used to say that tutoring had very little effect. But their latest research showed that it in fact had a very marked effect, and the scores continued to improve the more the child was tutored. It's been quoted (and linked to) on the 11+ forum.

Anecdotally, I tutored both of my DC myself. And their scores definitely improved with familiarity, not least because as they get more familiar with the questions/techniques they get faster so can answer more questions in the time. My NVR scores improved markedly as well!

seeker · 03/06/2013 17:56

Has anyone got the research to hand?

OP I hope you're happy with the direction this thread is taking. Please shout if you're not.

seeker · 03/06/2013 17:53

I honestly don't think the academic/non academic-ness of the primary school makes any difference to the VR and the NVR. Maths and English are obviously different, but the VR and NVR are such very specific skills, and skills which it would be bonkers for primary schools to teach because they are nothing to do with education. More like puzzle solving than anything else. And it is a learnable skill. I know because I learnt it.

HabbaDabba · 03/06/2013 17:03

Me attributing comments to the wrong person aside, the research sounds counter to many people's experiences. Mine showed steady improvement over the course of 6months.

If you took a child that was well versed in exam taking then no doubt that child's improvement will quickly plateau once he gets use to that test. However, if you took a child like mine that attended a non-academic primary then familiarizing him with the test will take a few weeks but getting him to work effectively under the clock will take months.

HabbaDabba · 03/06/2013 16:45

Blush Apologies seeker.