BBC news Kent 11+

I do not work with rowdy or disruptive people weighing. so is that one of the benefits of comp education to be able to work with rowdy people? genuine question.

My DD1 did not pass her 11+ and as a consequence did not get into grammar, she did not do well at school but seems to be doing ok making her way in life (shes 22 working and happy enough - im proud of her). The irony being that had we lived in a different catchment area (a poorer area - thanet) she would have been well above the pass mark for that area and gone to grammar school. I think this clearly highlights the bollocksness of selection.

who is demonising? I am certainly not - I don't have the answers - i think that there needs to be good education available to everyone and having selective schools doesn't achieve that. Those children in private/grammar schools wont have to sit in a class of rowdy disruptive kids who's parents couldnt give a shit about their education and try and work through it. (im not wording this very well) So will rather be used to being able to carry on with lots of support from peers etc, when they get to real life and work situation then they will get a shock. A more equal playing field is what is required but i don't know how to achieve that. There is clearly no point in having high achieving kids wanting to be stretched and challenged in with those who are struggling, that would be no good for either end of the spectrum.

I went to a comprehensive school - i left without qualifications becaue i was bullied for being bright. There were other reasons too, i later went on to achieve a degree and PhD. I don't think i got these despite a comprehensive education, It must have equiped me somehow. However, i have not had the confidence to do anything really with that - maybe that was due to the bullying - would that have happened in a grammar school? I might hve been bullied for being from a council estate, i might have been bulled because i had a terrible ever snotty nose and i snorted alot But i do believe if i wasn't bullied at school i would have probably been in a much better position now. I clearly had what it took, but a test that i sat when i was 11 suggested otherwise.

not sure the answer is to demonise parents and their children though weighing.

What a brilliant idea socareless - we can send them all to eton and then lock them up in the houses of parliament and give them moats for their ducks - they will be perfectly happy there, bless their little cottons.

As I said, its not selection based on income that i oppose to, its selection at such a young age.

Your life is mapped out for you before you are even born :(

You can just look at the back of the book for the main English paper. If they're doing the usual English paper there is a right and wrong answer for every question and it is given in the back of the book. It is no different to teaching maths, they don't even need to write a sentence.

We didn't do much essay practice. But the mark scheme was provided (basically you get more marks for more complicated sentences) so you can show your child how to improve but that IS covered in school and really isn't all that 'tutorable'. As I said upthread some of the tutored kids hated the essay paper because they couldn't write descriptions.

Our essay preparation consisted of using free websites to get a list of titles. Then discussing the sorts of things ds2 could write. He did a few practice timed ones and I showed him the sorts of things that would mark him down (all very basic). Showed him the mark scheme and talked about how we could use better words (my tutoring consisted eg of 'don't use 'got')

But anyway we didn't do much of that - the harder paper was the main English one which does have mark schemes, does have right and wrong answers, doesn't need the child to write much more than a word (if that) and is easier to do at home than something alien like NVR.

Perhaps we should sterilize couples with income of more than £50000 to level the playing field a bit. If we miss any couple and they have children we can just whirl them away and lock them up.

this will level the playing field and keep you all happy.

As explained in the previous post I am talking about people who said they would be happy to prepare for VR/NVR and maths but for some reason not English. My point is that it is no harder to prepare for English than the other three.

The head at the grammar school felt the English exam was the one which most closely matched the work done in general class so one that didn't need tuition (and I would agree - albeit the 11 plus is taken too early in most places now).

It's not easy to home prepare at all. Anyone who thinks it is has a very narrow view of society!

Provided you have the language, the knowledge, the confidence, the time

Well yes, but people upthread are saying that it's easier to home prepare for VR/NVR. If you can cope with that you can cope with English.

I am opposed to selective education of political and philosophical reasons. But even if I wasn't, the simple fact that it has so far proved completely impossible to design a selection process that is either uncoachable, or which tests for raw ability, without any bias in favour of the children of privileged/educated/better off/middle class people means that it is inherently unfair, and therefore unacceptable.
If such a test could be found, then there is a debate to be had about the merits of selective education per se. But it hasn't been found, despite years of trying, and I doubt if it ever will be.

"There's nothing difficult about preparing a child for an English paper(s) at home"

Provided you have the language, the knowledge, the confidence, the time.........

What I have a problem with is selection full stop - whether income comes into it or not (althouh i have a MASSIVE problem with children from well off families having an advantage over those from poorer backgrounds).

My DD is dyslexic - I would say she is about a year behind (being the youngest in the class doesn't help). I KNOW she will get there in the end, she is a bright little thing but definately behind her classmates both in intellect and emotional "age". I would have started her a year later but of course that wans't allowed, even though she is closer in age to children in the year below her than the year group she is in.

She probably wont pass the 11+ but my dillema is - should i push her (im perfectly capable of tutoring her myself actually) or should i just let her be a child and not put the pressure on her when she is,imo, far to young to cope with it? I have a few years yet but i find it sickening actually that children as young as 10 are under this sort of pressure, earlier even if you take SATS into account. All to tick boxes on a poxy league table.

There's nothing difficult about preparing a child for an English paper(s) at home. The mark schemes are available. Often the comprehension is a bit bonkers and out there but the essay is easy to prepare for, and the rest of the comprehension paper is multiple choice grammar questions. Easy enough to pick up an 11 plus book and go through it - the same type of questions come up again and again.

Incidentally on the essay this year a lot of the tutored kids struggled because it was a non-descriptive letter. They'd been so drilled on writing descriptions I have come across a few who were completely thrown.

I think the only way to "level" the playing field is to have seperate competitions for parents from different income brackets and/or limiting the number of places for private schooled children.

If a family has an income of 100K then they are making the choice whether to hire a tutor. If a family who can afford to tutor chooses not to then that is their stupid fault when their child cannot compete with children from a similar financial background.

A family with an income of 20K does not have the option of a tutor. Surely its better for them to compete with similar children for a grammar school place.

"you keep using same argument seeker. are all schools in Kent grammar schools"

No, but they are all selective.

We live in a different grammar school area. They switched to maths and 2 x English papers this year. The head said he was uncomfortable with a system where you really HAD to be tutored (he was talking about VR - which the English comprehension/grammar paper replaced). He said that at least maths and English is covered at school so you have some hope without tutoring.

FWIW we didn't tutor ds2 (although he did do past papers) and he got in.

Living in Kent i can't make the comparison but its seems a bit of a daft system to me - I have a friend who "thinks she is better than me" (it is a joke, we tease each other about it) just because she passed her 11 plus and I didn't. However now i think im better than her, and tell her frequently because I have a PhD and she only has a paltry veterinary degree I can't help but wonder thouh if i had have passed 11+ and gone to the grammar school instead of the comprehensive if i woudlnt have had to gain all of my acedemic qualifications as a mature student.

Fuck me - "if you did then perhaps you shoul accept that your DS isn#t as bright as you like to think he is" Thts not smug, thats just plain vile

Well, maybe its something about your posting style if you have been accused twice in one week

seeker - in all your rants about the Kent GS system I don't think that you ever mentioned whether your DC was tutored, either by a tutor or by yourself

If you didn't (pardon the Americanisn) then that is like taking a knife to a gun fight and then complaining that it's unfair.

If you did then perhaps you should accept that your DS isn't as bright as you like to think he is and stop injecting the issue into every thread that touches the subject
I mean, the thread is about whether the proposed current changes will make the selection process better. We don't need yet another rehash of the evils of the grammar system.

That was me being smug???

That is the 2nd time in a week. Apparently me posting that my DCs, when they were toddlers, didn't chuck food around when eating out was also me being 'smug'.

The 'intelligence' comment was directed at posters who think that you need an expensive tutor or a uni degree to go to the school's website and to download pass papers.