Double science v. triple. Has DS blown it?

As a PP said your son's current levels would suggest B/B at double not A* or A. The reason the guidance suggests that pupils working at level 6 should be offered triple science is because they stand a chance of getting CCC. Many will but plenty won't.

In your situation I think I'd opt for the double and get him to pull his finger out to improve his grades to A* or A. Getting CCC or CCD at GCSE really will end his chances of studying sciences at A-level and further. A good or excellent grade at double will give him much wider options.

Also, are you sure he is on course for 6A at the end of year 9? If he was 6c at Christmas and is just 6b now there's a good chance that he could still be 6B at the end of the year even making good progress.

As someone suggested up thread, consider getting a tutor - if the school agrees to the Triple Science. Don't think you can do it yourself. Unless your ds is very pliable it's a road to giant rows. If I try to "assist" ds with any homework, he roars and bellows like an irate, cornered bison, even though I am bursting to unleash my knowledge of WWII or Othello etc etc on him.

Although it is good to stretch oneself, it is also important not to bite off more than one can chew. Some of ds's friends elected to do a large number of GCSEs: Triple Science, Statistics, twilight subjects - and now one or two are regretting it. Ds says Stats is time-consuming and much harder than he though it would be. We seriously considered asking the school if he could quit as it was upsetting him quite a bit that his classmates were streaking ahead of him, but he is soldiering on - with additional help from the teacher. With hindsight, though, he wouldn't have gone for it.

Slightly different perspective, my DS2, who sounds a lot like the OPs DS2, was originally sent the non-Ebacc options form (see my previous frantic post) with no language option. I was determined that he would do a language and not the basic skills cert thing they put him down for and arranged a meeting ready to go in with all guns blazing.

Got to the meeting, was told that another child who had been put down for the Ebacc didn't want to do it, they could just swap them around with no timetabling issues, job done, no fight required....

It could be timetabling as much as anything else, ie sets 1 and 2 do triple, sets 3 and 4 double, 5 and 6 Btec, timetables all sorted. Those on the border may wish to move up or down on those boundaries, for example some of those automatically pegged by the school to do triple may be more into the arts and not want the stress, if a few of them request double, that could leave some spaces in the triple? Try not to go on the attack until you're sure you need to...

Good luck OP.
I think you need to get to the bottom of whether the school thinks he really is not capable or whether they are being entirely too cautious and protectionist of their precious league table results.

If it's the former, then there you are. If it's the later, then bugger that.

But if you win this argument you really must impress upon your DS that he must knuckle down hugely. This actually might be easier in the triple set, as everyone who isn't bothered about science will be put in double!!!!

Erebus-just wanted to say good look with meeting you sound like fab parent and you considered so many factors in picking schools,your sons academic performance sounds good and your reason for wanting to do triple is logical one based on sons career hopes.

Is the school selective entry academy at year 7? or just normal la comp?

Does it have wide group of kids ie affluent and fsm?

Im in two minds about league tables as as parent its good to know but think sometimes makes schools limit opportunities for kids and in some cases too early.

My eldest is only 7 so i early stages of nc and it worries me how schools think kids will mature like robots and follow linear line so level 3 at means level 5 in year 6 and only some primaries will offer level 6 then thats used to determine what pass rate and set they will be at gsce.

I dident realise at secondary that they outlined the nc levels so clearly as cant remember that being the case when i was in school In the 90s.

I went to 1large comp only one in rural marley town the and the middle to bottom groups were filled with poor displine behaviour problems and that impacted on how I did in some of my gcses.

A large proportion of my year did single award science.

if he doesnt do triple can he do extra gcse as whenever i see gsce results day im amazed how many gcses some kids do as think i sat 8. The lower english groups also lot out on english lit.

The top groups modern languages got to do 2nd language but that was in year 8 and 8 not gcse we just had core

english-worth 2 if in top group only in bottom.
maths
science-max we could do was double

so 5gcses if triple then that gives him 6.

then 4options

I picked geography-wish I hadent would have been better off with art.

history-loved it my best subject.

business studies

french-god had to think for ages just now what 4th one was, teacher was dire predicted me an e wrote me off gout tutor and scraped a c.

My old school only cared about thet very top the middle coasted and the bottoms.

The year after me in wales had to do welsh gcse as well.

My step son very troubled, low acheiver on 2nd school.

hes in year 10 now an his options are

single award science
english
welsh
pe
art
btec hospitality-suppost to be equivilant to 4gcses.
maths-foundation-think higest grade is a d or c.

I imagine some of his choices manipulate the league tables.
He does not even want to go into hospitality so god knows why hes picked that.

I always did think triple in england and wales was quite rare in state sector non selectives at least.

The more I hear about scotlands education system but the more sensible it sounds.

I worry so much about schools as think they make some wrong had this recently as dd passed the phonics test year 1 so wasent eligible for any additional reading help.

I also think its important to note that top set 1 school maybe very diffrerent ability to top set in next town over.

And they all spoke of him being on target for good GCSE results. A/A* in double science is a good result.

I know which school you're taking about and your mention of PS up thread will enable anyone else to work out which one it is. This isn't the best way to go about it tbh. I would personally take it offline now before you make more accusations about the school's agenda. You should speak (not email) the teacher and discuss this with her.

I know you feel disappointed for your DS and that the teacher doesn't think he's triple science material. But teachers cannot do much more than keep telling the DC that they are damaging their GCSE potential with their 'in class' attitude. Whether DC in Y9 are all capable of realising that at their age is moot as it's not the school's decision to get DC to choose their options in Y9. Be grateful that the school is confident enough about the DC's ability to get good results over 2 years and doesn't spread it out over 3 like many comps by making them choose their options in Y8.

Level 6L/6H in Y9 is set 2 and not definite triple science material, especially when the DC isn't always trying his hardest in class. DH pulls his hair out at some of those DC (& parents) who think that simply being in the best comp in the county is going to be enough. But saying nothing to the teacher at the parents evening and then making these kinds of comments on the internet isn't on really. You really need to speak to her, without telling them that you think they're just protecting their position on the league table.

Well as I said, a couple of our local 'outstanding' comps with good GCSE results - not as good as yours - but still a little above average and with amazing value added, don't offer triple at all - and they still achieve excellent science A level results (my neighbour's son got 4 As at A level in maths and sciences) and excellent uni offers.

Oh, just remembered. It was explained to me that Further Additional Science (the third in the triple) is a half-way house between GCSE and AS level. Not sure if I understood it correctly but I got the feeling that if ds did Further Additional he would then be repeating some of the work at AS level.

Speak to the 6th form in question. Because if your ds is literally the 61st on the list and only 60 can do triple then he should be able to bridge the gap easily. And the 6th form should still accept him especially in light of his great maths!

Sorry, thought you (or he) had a specific 6th form in mind. My misunderstanding. (ds and I do have a favourite in mind hence why I had assumed... arf, not coherent again)

Whilst your school's results are very very good, perhaps your ds is one of those who, whilst very able and higher than average, has not quite got what it takes to do triple science.
And perhaps the school is worried that if he was put on triple science some of his other subjects may suffer.
Whether they have that concern for your son or for the league table, only you can judge that as only you know the school and have a feel for it's ethos and values.
I know that at ds's school they would have the best interest of the pupil in mind. And therefore they are always willing to talk to parents and listen to them and the pupil and work together to achieve the best outcome.

I hope you get to the bottom of this and have a good and satisfactory meeting with the school.

Ok I don't understand entirely the whole new GCSE structure thing but I just wanted to let you know that I managed to do A-levels in chem and biology with dual science (and on to medicine after that). My friends who did engineering did ok in GCSE and A-levels - what is more important in engineering is maths (and further maths, or its equivalent). It can be done, maybe not at the college where he had his heart set on, but if engineering is really what he wants to do, other colleges are accepted.

Fair point about the level 8 thing in Science.

As for the rest. I simply don't know. I don't know if the school genuinly have your ds's best interests at heart or if they are protecting their league table.

I personally feel that if your ds is on a 6 low, and that 6 low is comparable to NC levels then in ds's school (which is lower performing than yours) he would not be in the top 20% on course for triple science. This leads me to think it is a level / attainment / effort related decision rather than a high performing school wanting to protect their good results.

But no one will be any the wiser until you speak to the school. And if your ds has to take a different route, then that is bad luck but not the end of the world. There are more 6th form colleges rather than the one you have your heart set on. It does not mean his dream of science / engineering has finished.

I think that you have to get it clear in your mind what you're asking for out of a meeting - no point in us telling you how many level 7 and 8 scientists we know in yr 9.

You need honesty from the school as to what actual GCSE grades they see him attaining were he to take triple as opposed to double and how close he is to being one of those allowed to take triple - ie if they've only 60 spaces, how far off that cut-off point is he?

Officially level 8 only exists in maths, doesn't it? But I know in my school they are regularly given out (where deserved obviously) in English and science too (eg the whole top set - a quarter of the cohort - will be level 8 in English by the mid/end of yr 9).

92% of pupils get GCSEs including maths and English. Do they pass them or do they get between A* - C grade which is what league tables go on?

Also, that doc you linked to is a bit wooly and vague to my mind and does not give you much to go on.
However, a massive red flag to me is that level 8 is no longer available in Y9. Why?? Surely if a top set science pupil is working at a 7, and in line for statistics in Y10 as well as doing maths A levels at age 14 they should be able to sit the test for subsequently reach level 8 in science? Ds's target for the end of Y9 is 8C (8 low in your school's language) and some of his much brighter class mates are on target for 8B and above by the end of the year 9.

I think the Fischer Family Trust data requires a level 7 to be on course for A/A*, doesn't it? And a level 6 predicts a grade B.

I don't doubt everything you say about your school's GCSE results, OP, but their quantity of level 7s in year 9 does seem low (if you have the correct information), compared to what I know of some of our local schools, and previous posters have said. Is there any chance that you've misunderstood some of the data (KS3 not KS4)?

I agree with you, though, that doing double science at a school that offers triple looks worse on paper for sixth form entry, so I don't suppose there's much help in many of us telling you anecdotally how some of our local schools only offer double to everyone and they still get fab science results at A level and top Uni offers?

Erebus, they strike me as low purely when compared to other state schools who expect top set science pupils to start year 9 on 7C as mentioned both by myself and shipwrecked.
I am not for a minute doubting these are not intelligent kids, but low level 6 with only a few expected to reach level 7 by the end of Y9 strikes me as low for top set. Especially for a school with a 92% GCSE A* - C rate. Hence my question regarding the NC levels as I was not sure you were talking about a different marking / levelling system.
I am merely stating that something does not appear to add up. What that is I don't know.
I am also not for one minute suggesting that you are boasting, far from it.