Double science v. triple. Has DS blown it?

ER, can I say that I have always loved your name!

yes clay, I am. And I would also largely agree with you about the levels.
However, its difficult to make such judgments about a child without knowing him.

More troubling is your first sentence, which I completely agree with.

I think that the best indicator of A level performance is the GCSE grade, rather than whether they did dual or triple.

And by the time you get to A levels, the A level grade is more important than whether you did 2 or 3 sciences at GCSE.

Even most medical schools are not specifying triple science, if science A levels are chosen.

I had noticed that, which is a shame because I suspect that the only thing preventing the OPs DS from doing science A-levels in the future might well be the OP.

Are you a secondary science teacher, Shipwrecked? My understanding was that the current expectations for progress were 2 levels per key stage, so that a child at level 5 at the end of year 6 would be expected to be level 7 by the end of year 9. So not only are the DS's levels not high but he's made less than expected progress across KS3. This assumes that he was a level 5 and not an uplevelled 4a.

Dd's high performing CE comp (85% A* - c including English and maths) sounds similar to your son's school in terms of intake. At her school about 30% of y9s achieve L7. And about 70% achieve L6+. The general rule of thumb there is that the L7s take triple (started in Y9 as these would have been L6B + at the end of Y8, those that don't get L7 at the end of Y9 - they still give them SATs papers at the end of Y9 - get dropped to double). L6s at the end of Y9 get entered for higher tier. L5s get entered for foundation. L4s do single science over 2 years. A huge number of foundation students achieved a B on the Y10 exam as they scored highly on the papers and scored As and Bs on controlled coursework. Could be your son's school is taking a similar approach. L6s are targetted at B though lots achieved higher last year.

to be honest, I don't think op wants to hear any of this but instead, is only looking for support for her position against the school.

metronome AFAIK the NC levels are the same for every subject. The go from 1 to 8 and then exceptional performance. The KS3 science tests, tested to a maximum of level 7 but teacher assessment can go up to EP (although it is rare).

Nationally, about 17% of children reach level 7 at the end of year 9, with the following 34% reaching level 6 and about 1% of boys reaching level 8.

Triple science over 2 years is a big big ask if he's only scraping 6b at this point in Year 9. With the move back to terminal exams it is a huge risk.

I'll say it again, the local sixth form (in Winchester) are quite happy with double science even from your school!

My son is in one of two top set Science groups in a "good" average comp (65% 5 GCSEs A-C). He is in Year 8. He says just a couple are on 7c, approx 5 are on 6a and the majority are on 6b or 6c with a few on 5a. He says that those on 5a have recently been moved down a group. So, I guess from this that being on a 6c a year from now in Year 9 would put you on the borderline (at this particular school.

Word factory, I know of no bias against students leaving with double award instead of triple and trying to get onto science courses in our sixth form or any of the local institutions around us.

Quite the opposite. There is a lot of financial value in students entering sixth form and no where can afford to turn anyone away!

Has anyone said that their child is at a level 9? As far as I'm aware, national curriculum official levels in Science go up to a level 7, but some schools may teacher assess at a level 8 if they believe that a child is at this level, which is why some posters have been saying that their child's target is an 8C or whatever (please correct me if this is wrong).
As has been stated, all state schools measure to National Curriculum levels, not different scales. All people have been trying to do is express their surprise that at a high performing comp only very few 'exceptional' pupils would be working at level 7 at the end of Y9 and check that you have the correct information about this, but you seem very defensive about it. No one is disputing that the school is high performing.

A level 7 is possible at KS3 and many, many students get 7a-7c.

Two classes worth each year at my comp.

And we measure to national curriculum standards as does every state school in this country (not sure where you get the idea that school measure differently )

apologies - I was talking about DiDA in terms of the accreditation and CiDA has been accredited from 2012

A level 6 is not particularly high, especially if there are students in your DS's school with higher levels. Triple science is not for the faint hearted therefore there is a realistic view from schools as to who are those capable of achieving and not having to work excessively to the detriment of other subjects.

I suggested research - not holding a viewpoint that despite others telling you is not the case and keeping to that argument research; MN is not solid research but a good starting point as long as you actually take the posts suggesting that you are not correct on board.

My comment regarding your hysteria is that you are so focused on your DS studying engineering at uni that you are not looking at the wider picture of his future - a full and rounded education with the best results possible for your child is the best route even if this means double science.

The big concern I now have and this is a major worry is your statement that the school have only recently introduced CiDA - this qualification has a certification end date of 31st December 2014 and Edexcel have stated that they are not going to apply for reactivation and that they will only offer GCSE or BTEC for ICT at level 2

You are way too involved, OP.

Yes, wordfactory, I understand that. But in schools where triple science is offered only 20% of pupils take triple. Are you therefore telling me that the others, who come out with high double science cannot take it at A level college? That the college will immediately dismiss them? Because I, for one, don't believe it.
There is a very high achieving, well regarded 6th form near us, I spoke to them last month when we were helping ds choose his gcse options.
They emphatically stated that a dc who has high double science results, from a school which offers triple, has as much chance on A level science as a pupil from the same school with lower level triple science scores.

Because triple is only offered to the top few. They cannot and do not disregard pupils whose ability is above average but not the upper-echalons-of-triple-science-level.

If the OP's local 6th form does not do this, then perhaps the fault lies with them, not with OP's ds's school?

Your latest post op suggests that he also wants to do computer studies, will struggle with MFL and as many, many others have said his NC science level is not particularly high therefore why are you pursuing making your DS's education a battle rather than a joy. Computer studies on its own is a very difficult course and there are few who achieve good results therefore he will need to put a lot of time and effort into this as with MFL in order to gain a decent grade.

I am with Books in terms of your hysteria and views on differing qualifications/routes and I would suggest you take a less blinkered view stop reading MN! and do some research; not only with 6th forms, but also universities and employers.

But as the OP has said, there is a difference bewteen a pupil ebing in a school that doesn't offer the triple, and being in a school that does but not doing it.

The former is excused. Sixth forms and universities understand that the pupils have no choice. They are not ebing offered the more rigorous course. The failing is with the school not the pupil.

The later is trickier.

As I have said before, DS - with current Science levels higher than your DS's, though he's in mid Year 7 rather than Year 9 - will do double science, because that's what his school offers.

I have been assured by them that this is no barrier to him doing 3 sciences at A-level should be choose to (I was a scientist, so this is important to me).

Double science does not mean 'destined for an apprenticeship'. DS will do double science, but I fulle expect him to go to an academic university (though possibly not for Science - even though his Science / Maths results are very high, his heart lies in History / Geography / Languages)

I don't understand why you are being so black and white about it. It apears that you think triple science = university, double science = vocational courses.
Many of us have told you it is perfectly possible to go on to A levels and university with double science. But you seem to not accep this?
Why are you so set on triple? Higher marks in double science will be just as useful to your ds.
There are not just high achievers and low achievers, there are many many many levels of achievement inbetween, many of whom can go to university.

I fear that if you push for your ds to do triple science, he will struggle and perhaps resent you for the pressure you are putting him under.
Yes, he wants to do it, but is he really capable?
How will he feel at the end of Y11 when results are in and he has mediocre marks across ALL his gcse's because he had to try to do triple science?

If it was my ds I would let him do double and ensure he also gets a very good mark in his English, Maths, MFL and humanity.

Also, you talk of your ds's dream of Science or Engineering at university. Notice the OR. He does not yet know for definite what he wants to do. Not many 13 year olds know for certain what they want to do. Ds and his friends all seem to change their minds every few weeks! Ds has swung from thinking he wants to do dentistry at uni, to human biology, to archeology, to aerodynamics and is now back at dentistry. I am certain it will change many more times in the next few years!
For this reason we are ensuring he has selected a broad range of GCSE's including double humanity.
If he gets to the end of Y10 and has not made the grade for triple science I shall not worry. As long as he comes out with a good set of GCSE's with good results I shall be happy. I am not pinning my hopes on purely Science for him.

Also, someone (it may even have been on MN) told me that with maths and science, no matter how good you are early on in your schooling, there is a natural ceiling that you reach and then you can go no further. That ceiling is higher and more advanced for some, and lower for others. If your ds is not top set triple science material now, how likely is it that his natural ceiling is beyond university level?

I understand from your posts that you and your family had thought that ds's academic future in Science was 'set' and 'sorted'. I understand it is a shock to find out it is not. But there are so many things your ds can do. Instead of pushing for triple, perhaps now is the time for your ds to sit down with you both and think about what he enjoyes, where he sees himself in 5, 10, 15 years and work from there?

Ds's school, when we were choosing options, told us about a website called u-explore .com where you could look at the subjects your pupil enjoys / is good at and from there it lists A level courses / university courses / possible careers based on those interestes / courses.
We were told to spend some time looking at this with our dc to give them an idea of the careers out there.

Hope that helps

I am not entirely sure why you came on here to ask for advice if you had already made you mind up as to the value of double award.

Good luck with the school. but if, as I suspect, they stand by their decision, please do remember that double award doesn't prevent students doing A level sciences..... only students themselves do that.

You are in danger in being a little dramatic, now, OP. A pair or As or even Bs in science does not consign ds to technical college/apprenticeship/vocational educational, not by a long shot.

There are a range of Universities with a range of entry criteria and not taking triple science is not going to preclude him from going to one of them.

I don't think you really have taken on board the various comments about how double science can easily lead onto science A levels OR the comments upthread (and ClayDavis' recent one) suggesting that his current levels are not massively high (no disrepect, and I hadn't posted this earlier - but all of my ds's top set are level 6c plus in year 7) OR the comments on how maths is the crucial A level (probably together with physics).

Good luck anyway.