North London Grammar School entrance exams. V Tough?

@peteneras how do you tutor a newborn?

[grin]@peteneras

It must be extremely sensitive for any non-Asian parents to discuss the topic especially on public forum like this one to say what they truly think.

I didnt see many Black, White, South East Asian in either 11+ rounds even in the couple of mocks we took. My assumption was the competition is so fierce, it forced out other culture family even from trying( even from mocks, from trying at all).
I dont agree that only “Indian”(or look alike) parents are competitive though, South East Asian parents are known for it. Many “white”(or look alike) parents are very competitive too. However more in all aspects not just academic. Thats my 2 cents.

@peteneras - you know I don't mean tutoring to get into a particular school which is in line with their ability level.. I'm taking about tutoring to get the child to a school where the standard and expectations is higher than the child can cope with. It's then that parents panic in year 7, restart the tutoring and never stop..

I have DC at highly selective schools. The first is a lazy sod half the time, but keeps up easily with the class. No tutoring required though after 11+. I help at home if they are struggling but they don't often ask and I don't check their homework at all.

"A colleague has had her child tutored since year 2 . . .Then what? The music stops some time and it's probably when these children make it to the workforce for the first time. . .No wonder that there is a mental health crisis among our children and young adults."

Huh! That's absolutely nothing at all. In fact, your colleague should be thoroughly ashamed of her/himself for waiting five or six years before starting the "tutoring".

I personally "tutored" both my DC since Day 1 - i.e. the day they were born, and if anyone wants to know, I'm mightily and absolutely proud of it. Got to say though, all the "tutoring" or the "music" as you put it, abruptly stopped on Day 1 when elder child started secondary grammar school - yes, in north London - and younger child stopped even earlier aged 10 when he left for boarding school, and yes, giving up the already secured famous north London grammar, QEB, in the process.

Both DC now happily integrated into the workforce with absolutely no mental health problems whatsoever - the years of "tutoring" they have had, the unshakable rock solid foundation they stood on (and still standing on today) was more than enough to see them sailed through primary/secondary/university education and now contributing to society.

The only "mental health" crisis that exists anywhere today is perhaps right here in this household with no one else around to listen to my "music" anymore. Guess I've to listen to them myself.

I agree some British born Asians are
also turning away from QEB, HBS, Tiffin and such schools.

Many Asian parents see the academic success of their children as their own personal achievement. I think that's less prevalent among British parents.

Whether British or otherwise, some parents go to extreme lengths to ensure the child "succeeds". A colleague has had her child tutored since year 2 for selective secondary school. She will no doubt tutor her once she's in one of these schools and then continue to pay for additional help at university (help with tutorials or dissertations). Then what? The music stops some time and it's probably when these children make it to the workforce for the first time.

No wonder that there is a mental health crisis among our children and young adults.

Amaad- I was tentatively suggesting why there is a disproportionate number of kids of Asian, especially subcontinental Asian origin in selective schools. It is well reported that India has created an aspirational MC, but often without the job opportunities, stable institutions etc to meet the aspirations. This may explain the huge push firstly to come here and second to secure quality education for the second generation. Possibly once families have been in UK longer a more nuanced view of school choices/ education may occur for some.

I think that there are some valid points here. I don’t think that it’s just that the Asian parents are more invested in their children’s education. I know many families, both Asian and non Asian who won’t put their children forward for the QE and HBS exams because of concerns that the school is too monocultural.

When I grew up both of the schools were ethnically diverse with a range of children from all kinds of ethnic backgrounds, I had lots of friends at both. Aspirational local parents now actively choose either independent schools, faith schools or good comprehensives rather than go down the QE, HBS route as they don’t want their children to be in such a minority - all would be very happy to be in the school if it were more mixed.

Obviously that’s not a problem for the schools, they’re getting highly focused, bright, ambitious kids but it’s not fair to say it’s because only the Asian parents are ambitious. It’s because other parents, including in my experience many British born Asian families have concerns that it’s very monocultural and would like more ethnic diversity.

There are plenty of people ( native people of England) who never heard about grammars. They happy how they live and only know that indies not affordable or even if they have money they prefer spend for own pleasure than invest into the children. Moreover, they do not have an idea what means a university degree, college and that it.

Parents of those Asian children much clever. They came here for the best life and future their children. They put a lot of efforts to teach own children.

Unfortunately, we do not see a future for our DC without grammar school. This is stability, education, discipline and wide knowledges.

When we went to QE open evening this year we have not noticed any difference in relation of the nationality. All we saw we’re: confident smart young gentlemen who know what they want from life.

We are South east Asia so cant give you the answer, South East Asia countries are known of being “helicopters/tigers” even I have never considered myself as one(mainly because my children dont see parents much during the week as both work ridiculous hours plus travelling.

Not wishing to set the cat amongst the pigeons, and I’m not trying to goad anyone, but could one reason be the high number of educated people in India who have found that there is a lack of prospects there to match their aspirations, and have decided that their children will have better opportunities in the UK provided of course they get a good education?

What we noticed was yes, massive skew toward Asian at both rounds for the North selective state schools. I was waiting for my daughter finishing her round 2 exam and watching a PE section in Henrietta Barnet and every girl was Asian. Speaking of being Asian ourself.

Wow thats very good answer

As to whether these exams are "hard" or not who knows. QE boys has a vast number of places, the selective states are harder to get into than any of the privates. Plenty of people 'round here get all the privates and none of the states. Yes, QE boys is full of clever Asians but they are the ones who have got through the exam. That doesn't make it skewed. Some do tutor to high heaven but with my first DS, we did three papers a day (yes, three hours a day) from Sept to Nov of exam ... and that was it. He was co-operative in a way my other children weren't and it worked for us. 10 years down the line all my state educated children are in the same unis as their primary school chums who went private. Speed and accuracy is all I have to say about the exam. And I certainly wouldn't call any of my children super-bright.

HBS has about 2700 applicants for about 90 places with no geographical restrictions

Thank you, Tissunnyupnorth . Very useful info. My son is preparing for QE thsi year. Fingers crossed. Hoping he gets into !

We decided to remove ourselves from the waiting list for qe (in top 30) only because I preferred the atmosphere and vibes of the boys at the independent school we chose. It really did seem like a exam hot house at qe. Another initial concern was that approx 90%+ of the boys were of Asian origin. We were concerned our ds wouldn't fit in. In fact by ds friend goes there and he is the only white boy in his class!
His mum would prefer it to be more diverse, however her son is very happy at the school. So the lack of diversity shouldn't matter

That puzzled me too. My children (who are white) are in a fee paying school in London where most of the children are not white. It reflects the people are around here. So is that skewed or unskewed? Whereas our nearest state primaries seem to be almost 100% white (C of E) and most non white and many little girls with head scarves and that difference to me seems a bit "skewed" although I suppose it's a religious divide so perhaps not skewed.

My children haven't applied to the schools mentioned but they are certanily very good schools; we just preferred the private system.

The ethnic balance is skewed ( in QE boys) and is a point that is mentioned in hushed tones

What does you mean by this? The school is ethnically diverse not skewed.
If a school has only ethnic group such as white British students then it is ethnically skewed.

My son is in yr9 at QE. There are a lot of 'myths' surrounding the school, which are best addressed by visiting yourself and making your mind up.

With regards sixth form admittance it is based on internal tests taken throughout year 10 & 11, not on GCSE results, so there is no 'last minute.com'. Parents & boys are very aware of the system and offers for A levels are made very early. I would say if you want your son to attend a school where he can guarantee carrying on into sixth form from yr11, QE might not be the school for you. The sixth form is seen as quite distinct & separate from the lower school. We took the view that the education he would receive from 11 through to 16, with excellent GCSE results, would set him up to take his A levels wherever he wanted (he has always thought he would like to attend a co-ed sixth form). All sixth forms have admittance requirements, my DD is at our local comprehensive where the admittance to sixth form has changed this year, requiring much higher GCSE grades. It really will be a panic in August if she doesn't meet these requirements. DD will probably be 'excluded' from taking various A levels, due to not meeting various requirements, such as A level Psychology, which the school now require GCSE grade 6 Maths.

A proportion of boys that leave at the end of year 11 do so by choice, for many reasons. They move to independent schools where they are offered scholarships, to co ed, other grammar schools nearer their homes, for example. It is incorrect to say that every boy that leaves at the end of yr 11, is 'forced' out.

With regards to the entrance exam, again I think there are a lot of myths surrounding this also. Yes, nearly 2000 boys take the exam, but many take it as a free 'mock' for other school entrance exams and have no intention of applying to the school. Most boys apply to multiple schools, including the independent schools and even if they score highly on the QE exam, take up a place elsewhere. It is a school without a catchment, attracting many eleven plus 'tourists'. There are 180 places in yr7 and I believe the school goes down to about candidate 300/350 to fill those places. Yes, you do have to be very good at Maths & English to do well in the exam, but my DS always maintained it was being able to work accurately, with speed, which was more important, as many boys didn't finish the papers. As teachers, we prepared DS ourselves, going through eleven plus papers and covering the yr6 syllabus, for about 5 months before the exam. QE was his choice.

Every child is different and school experiences are so subjective. DS has not found QE to be a 'hot house'. He has no more homework than his peers at other schools, he has made great friends and is very happy at his school. He is also receiving an excellent education.

I would say children who get into QE/ HBS would most likely get into Latymer, but those that get into Latimer would not necessarily get into QE/HBS.

If you are living in North Finchley/Barnet, Southgate or Islington (and maybe parts of Enfield?) then you would be in catchment to apply for Dame Alice Owen's - partially selective, accepts siblings, children via a music selection rate and children from the local potters bar area. Also a sought after school in the selection stakes.

Children can and do get into such 'super selective' as the ones you have listed. If they are highly academic, happy to do additional prep in year 5 and like what they see when they go round the schools and parents are happy to go through the whole process then it's worth a go. Important though that these schools are never seen as a sure fire option, the numbers game just means you never know.

Most children are tutored or are taught by parents who are naturally good teachers. The important thing is whatever route is chosen, to be balanced and measured in approach. Slow, steady and supportive; an hour or two a week max in year 5.

It's important the children have a good backup option that they are comfortable with, so that if it doesn't work out with the super selectives then they are happy with the school they will go to.

Friend Of DS2 got into QE last year he was 25th on waitlist got told he had a place last July; he didn't live in the area and the family had to relocated

I believe lowest score on national offer day for Qe was either 231/232

My super
Bright ds who got offers from the top Hertfordshire Indipendents, did not get QE boys on national offer day, and a good score for Latymer, but we were out of catchment.
After these results it opened my eyes to how bright the children are that are getting into the north London grammars. To be top of my sons class (which is super competitive) and working for two years (with no tutor), simply wasn't enough. My ds friend got into QE few years ago, but he went to prep school, had two tutors and worked non- stop on weekends. I was not prepared to go that far. my ds has a high waitlist place for QE, but we've decided it's too much of a hot house and prefer the relaxed atmosphere at one of the independents he was offered.

Hello! What is the highest score this year and what kind of scores did the 180 students that got in to the Queen Elizabeth school achieve? Thank you

Yes. Yes they are...