The Trinity-Whitgift thread of 2013 continued

Can I suggest that the thread will be most useful in future if you don't "shoot the messenger". Cinder55 is happy with the school for her ds's, but queries whether it provides the same value for money for the full feepayers. We've already had posters on here who have tried to answer that question for themselves. And of course anyone looking at W or T are looking at these schools with a particular context: and more importantly on the basis of what other schools are options for them. Those with offers also from KCS are in a different position from those with a place at Quest Academy.

Please note that the rumour this year is not that everyone who can afford to pay W has a place: it is only about those who passed the exam. Due to threads such as these, which have alerted many people to the offers made by W & T it is more and more common for parents who are aiming for grammar school places to sit W or T as a back-up. It's nothing new, but it has been more common. And this is a relatively "thinner" school year squeezed between 2 "fat ones". Which is not to diminish the achievement or ability of any child who has been offered a place.

I know that a lot of parents have been surprised to have received the class list and then realise the number of boys in the yeargroup, or even boys per form. And it is a difference between W&T (the latter of which try very hard to ensure that they keep to the same intake each year). This doesn't make W a poor school in any way - it is just one of the differences between these schools.

Anyway, all this is moot for the 10+/11+ ers now. And there are many years ahead!

cinders55- this is news to me too! I think my sons year is 191at present so I put the number discrepancy down to natural wastage over the 2GCSE years and/or boys taking exams early so not appearing on cohort stats. I'm a little bemused tbh. as I understand it, the lower achieving boys are in sets of 10 for maths, and last year 2/3 of them reached A*. so why would they be sitting at Croydon college?

I think it's very telling that these W/T threads are always enormous, and I think that says a great deal about the ethos of both the school and of the families that want their son(s) to attend. Look at us - we have supported each other since way before results were out, and we're still here weeks later! And I don't recall anyone mentioning league tables, not once...

Maybe I could've sat ds for somewhere more 'selective'. But why would I? I'm not the sort of person who wants 'top tier' or nothing. Whitgift is my local school. I've grown up with it. I know the type of boy it 'produces' (for want of a better word!) And league tables are just the tiniest part of an educational experience, afaic. Maybe it's not utterly perfect in every way. But the school has already shown enormous faith in my ds and I know it's going to offer him the kind of opportunities that his other school options can only dream about, and he will make the most of them. That's more than good enough for me.

Burntoutdad...you do make me laugh...I was fuming while reading Cinders post....oh well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion...and just when I thought I was free from this thread ...now its gone and got even more captivating!

Cinders55 - regarding the bright ds not getting a plce at W. Could it not be a number of other factors that prevented it?? Perhaps he had an off day? Or W thought he wouldnt fit? Or parents said something they shouldnt have at interview?
And as for giving the cricketer a large scholarship do you not believe that 'talent' or 'potential' should be rewarded as well as 'academic prowess' ?
If Oxbridge was a parents main focus then research would direct them to kcs etc. My DS for one would hate sitting in a class of 8 being pushed prepped for that.

Cheammum - i just wrote a really long post in reply to cinder55's seemingly bitter post and lost all of it. When i reloaded, yours was there and its almost identical to what i was going to say (although mine wasnt as polite!)

Cinder55...I was estactic to accept my Ds's place at W11+ on a full fees basis (did so with my eyes very widey open; knowing full well that it is not ranked as highly in the league tables as some of the super selective independent schools.

However I did not look at league tables in isolation or listen to the rumour mills at the school gates..you cannot judge a school purely like that...There are so many other factors that you need to consider..my number one priority was/is mainly will my son be happy, learn and thrive to the best of his ability and have a good social mix of friends ..I still believe W can achieve this.

I am in no doubt that there will be bumps along the way....as no school is perfect. Life is not perfect....!

However as encouraging and supportive parents, I would like to think that we all know whats best for our own individual children,as each child is different; and everyones circumstances and reasons for choosing one school over another will be different.

I for one, as echoed by Croydonmum, Nothingyummymum, Fatal,BurntoutDad and others, am truely proud of my Ds's achievements...so I still say roll on September...can't wait!

Thank you Croydonmumtods, had a panic attack that my post could have been misconstrued!
We, too, like the diversity and the "aspirational" aspect of W. It may not be for everyone, but we like the exposure DS will get and hopefully there will even be some boys who may benefit from getting to know his odd little personality.
As we are not by any stretch of the imagination well off, we felt we would not have fitted in at our other option, although that school does indeed perform better in the league tables than W, fwiw.
Also - as I have stated before - DS is not sporty. So he certainly didn't get in on that account. But I do like the idea of him being in a school where sport is important. And art and drama and music and Dalek and robotics club. And mucking about with boys from a slightly or very different background (better and worse!).

rockwithu totally agree horses for courses and all that. I love ds's current school but could produce a very long list of things that could be improved!

Cinder55, can you expand on 'issues with social dynamics'

IMO, there is not much difference between a class size of 20 and 25. 20 and 30, maybe?

Too much rumours going round, unfortunately not a comfort to all those people who didn't get in.

I don't think a lot of people were in any doubt that W, T etc are not super selective schools. Nor do I think most people are not able to look past the purple capes, peacocks and other assortments associated with W. As someone posted earlier, no school is perfect and I bet at least 1 person ( possibly more), could have written the same post cinder55 wrote about the super selective schools. I certainly have heard about people who have been bullied or struggled in the super selective schools. Each one to their own. What I would say, is yes, go in with eyes open, but don't let anything kill the joy & elation of now. And the anticipation of exciting times and the new challenges ahead. As parents we all have to help our DC somewhat, and not rely 100% on the schools, we have our parts to play.

fatal so pleased for you and your DS. At interview W were very particular to stress diversity of the school and to point out that everyone earned their place there and not just kids from independent preps. This is part of what I like about the school - society is diverse and schools should reflect that and children need to learn to get along with people even those they may not like as that is what happens when you go to work. Be interested to see what cinders has to say

Well, am just about calmed down now. Ds greeted the news with a huge grin, punched the air and then spent the next hour on the W website, so I think he's pretty pleased too

Am interested in the comments made about the 'social mix'. One of the things I like about the Foundation schools is that they do seem to end up with a more diverse intake, far more so than the usual 'public school' cliche. What sort of issues has it caused, cinder?

nothingyummymum I didn't read anything negative in your previous post in fact felt you reflected my own disappointment at suggestion that anyone who applied to W got in. Have also read cinder55 post and feel it is probably a realistic view from a current parent and forewarned is forearmed but I don't think it is a view shared by all. It is interesting to note that full fee places are available to anyone so perhaps I am a little naive but never mind. Have I made the right choice- yes without a doubt. Is any school likely to be perfect - no. But as cinders said it is a good solid school and up to us and our ds's to make the best of it.

Phew - read Cinder55's post just as I was about to post how sorry I am about being negative earlier! Am slightly at a loss for words now, except to say what I had actually meant to convey was an honest (too honest?) confession of how much a place at W means to DS. We are of the full fee paying variety and our difficulty was figuring out how we were going to pay for it, not whether to accept the place or not. I would still like to think every single DS who has been offered a place - whether at T, W or any other school that required assessments, interviews and tough (I'd like to believe?) entrance exams, fully deserves a place and I celebrate for each and everyone who has been accepted, while I cry for those who have either not been offered places or had to turn them down because of scholarship or bursary issues.
DS can't wait to start at W - in fact he would have started tomorrow if we had let him - and I really, really hope nothing curbs his enthusiasm, or that of any of the other boys who've worked hard and deserve to have their achievements celebrated. And that is meant in the most positive of ways.

Hi all, have been lurking and sharing your high and lows from a distance. I am parent with two DS's at Whitgift, one in Yr11 and one in Yr 8, so can give a sense of perspective on some of the posts. Will also state upfront that we do benefit from bursaries.

1. Is Whitgift a top tier or super selective school, no it is not! For that you would be looking at schools like KCS Wimbledon, Westminster etc. They are super selective, and still offer sports and music and the results show. E.g KCS had 55 offers to Oxford or Cambridge out of a year group of 100. Whitgift had 8 out of a year group of 200, so the difference is clear. However ,Whitgift is a solid school that will give your DS's a good solid base from which to build. For us has it been everything we imagined no, but are are DS'shappy. Yes!

2. The Whitgift foundation schools have one of the most generous Bursary schemes in the UK, it is widely acknowledged as creating a unique and diverse social mix. Not a bad thing, but has and does create issues in the social dynamic of the school.

3. Having spent £10 million on the Sports Centre are they keen to promote sporting excellence? Yes they are! But there is a feeling amongst existing Whitgift parents that this is to the detriment of bright boys at the admissions process. When DS2 was sitting 11+, a clever boy inis year group at his state primarywas offered scholarships at five other schools but not at Whitgift. A not so bright boy from the same state primary but a great cricketer was offered a 30 % scholarship with a full fee remission with a bursary. There is a feeling amongst parents that this pattern is worrying and had been mentioned to the school, as Whitgift have lost a lot of bright boys because of this as they choose to go elsewhere.

Part of the issue is that the school is so (too) big. Naturally they are focused on the top 10 %in each year who are scholars whether they are in Music, Drama, Sport or Academic. It does leave a big underbelly of boys in that middle ground who can get a bit lost in the system, and I would question if I was full fee paying as to whether there was value for money. Part of the issue is class size. Burntoutdad comment re great staff ratio is simply wrong. Whitgift have class size of 25, against Trinity with 22 and the super selectives have 20. Places like St Paul's and KCS teach in classes of 8 for the first three years in Maths, English and French etc.

In terms of offers and places offered, this year the rumour going round parents already at the school is that all passed that want a place have been offered a place, some went on the reserve list but have know been offered. If you can pay full fees there are still places available. Part of the issue is that the scholarship pool has been cut drastically so they have had a lot of rejections from parents expecting scholarships. They were expecting this so over offered massively. We have heard through the HM of Ds2 old prep school that lots did not get Trinity but did get into Whitgift, or offered Scholarships at other schools but not at Whitgift. It is also an open secret there that if your DS has not got a place elsewhere and did not try initially for Whitgift then a full fee place can be secured there today.

A big shock for me and perhaps why I'm writing this post is what I have just found out regarding GCSE entries, if they feel that your DS is not up the mark in a subject and will damage their rankings, they will ask him to sit the exams at Croydon College, so you pay the fees but are not sitting public exams under The Whitgift umbrella. Trinity does not do this, don't know about the others. There is also a big cull before entry to he sixth form. If you want proof of this ask them the question how many sat GCSE in English and Maths under the Whitgift name' you will find the answer will be 160-170, weal know that there is 200in each year group, so ask them what happened to the rest, as everyone sits English and Maths.......

Ok so this is not a rant, nor am I doing the school down, I have two DS's that are doing well there and have benefited from what Whitgift offer, but you need to be aware and manage your way through the school.and see past the Peacocks and Purple Capes. Top tier - no, a good solid school - yes.Enjoy and rejoice that your DS's have got in but go in with your eyes open!!!

@hardboiled, yes I did apply for a bursary place
@Croydonmumtods, thank you, I've got a couple of days to decide

I can do you a good deal on a cocker spaniel - strong enough to pull a fully grown adult female on a scooter up a hill. Allegedly. [ahem]

Croydonmumtods - LOL!! Alas after a recount of our finances and the realisation that childcare, uniform etc. will all be more expensive, I'm afraid that even a donkey and its associated garaging and fuel would be considered an upmarket luxury travel expense for us! We are considering other modes and any ideas will be considered .

I don't think anyone has tried to be purposely negative on here but its interesting to hear what some people have thought about the whole process (without actually thinking about the whole process!)

Like the idea re the school rivalry - lets start as we mean to go on and thrash play them in a pre-season friendly

Zato - thought you were a mum until the beer & curry proposal (and of course signing off as 'David'!). You might get more of a response if you make it 'wine and nibbles'!

fatal congratulations and well done. Welcome to the peacock brigade!!
treble great news on the offer - hope you'll be able to take this up.

It's so lovely to see the many positive and encouraging comments on here which has kept me going all these weeks. It is a shame some people feel a need to be negative but possibly this reflects their own insecurities rather then the absolute delight the rest of us feel regarding our ds's outstanding acheivements.
burntoutdad you should be easy to recognise as well as don't expext many others will be coming by donkey.
zato love your idea of meeting but sadly on the other side which made me think why not get this school rivalry thing really moving and have a T against W preseason friendly!

Yes I have been absent for a few days and have thoroughly enjoyed catching up with the news.

Do you need the bursary?

Just got the call through offering a W place! Yay!! Full fee paying - no bursary :((
What to do?!!

Thanks nothingyummymum, That would be fabulous and DS so thrilled! Here's hoping...

Welcome, Treble. Hoping you get your good news very soon!

Yay Fatal brilliant news.