The Trinity-Whitgift thread of 2013 continued

I will therefore be easily recognised as the grinning lunatic wearing the same jacket all year round suffering the bad side effects of baked beans..

racegirl - what a lovely post. You are so right and verbalised perfectly what I suspect many of us think.
I'm the other Cheshire Cat..

hardboiled - I think hott is referring to a previous poster who managed to get my (peacock) feathers ruffled.
Yes, let's move on. I'll also keep on my rose-tinted glasses, if only to hide the fact that I'm one of the state school products feeling so incredibly privileged to give my child such an amazing opportunity that I have been suckered into existence of beans on toast..
Well, bring it on. Maybe we're lucky we're in a thin year and our sons only had to pass the test (and I thought it was my specially purchased exec looking jacket that swayed the interview and the fact that I could get through it without cursing once!).
Now hoping that DS2 also has a thin year. What does the current Year 2 intake look like?

Woah. Just logged on and found a vast amount to read. My ds is off to T so can't have a personal perspective to add to that thread
I think (running a non-academic school myself and dealing with parents) that ultimately, you can't please all the people all the time and that took me while to realise. I do my best and work hard to be fair, encourage children etc... but still, some people will feel hard done by or aggrieved at certain decisions. It's mostly to do with the individual parents having unrealistic expectations of their children or what the school can achieve and not knowing enough about standards and defining characteristics (natural ability) to see what I, as a professional , can see.

I really feel that with parents as dedicated as you all seem to be, your ds's will continue to succeed wherever they go and you should all be proud to have gone with your instincts and taken the difficult steps towards securing the right school for your child.

My ds is in a very good state school where the teachers are great, and he has had some extra attention (being on the gifted and talented register) over his time there to extend his maths ability far past the level his year were working at. They've supported him really well but my DH and I both knew yr 6 would be treading water and going to a fantastic state secondary (which we're in spitting distance of) would not instil the drive or challenge in him as an individual.
So I made a choice to potentially take him away from his friends and the school he loves (which he was initially not happy about) and try this school that we literally fell in love with when we looked round last October.
He is now chomping at the bit to go and cannot wait to get to all the clubs on offer and really extend his learning.

I would imagine most of you are the same - you saw a benefit in your ds going elsewhere and so took steps to realise that so bravo to you all.

There will be good and not so good everywhere I guess, different pressures and conflicts but that is how real life is and I would rather my ds experience these life lessons in a supportive environment where I feel I can trust the teachers and faculty than live unrealistically through the next 7/8 yrs in a hot house environment getting souped up to just get Oxford/Cambridge.

Incidentally, my ds informed me on the way home from test that he didn't finish the maths or the verbal reasoning papers so when that phone call came for the interview - I was very shocked!!!

We still have cheesy grins on our faces every time someone approaches one of us to congratulate ds on getting in to T and haven't heard a bad word against it....and if I did.?.?. I'd still be grinning like a Cheshire Cat!!!

despite them saying they have opted for T, which is their preferred school and turned down a substantial scholarship offer from W.

hott I am confused, I thought Cinder said her DC are all at W?

Still following this thread with pleasure in spite of having opted for another school btw!

Ladymuck - your insight is always great and you are a voice of reason but this is copied from Cinder55 post:

It is also an open secret there that if your DS has not got a place elsewhere and did not try initially for Whitgift then a full fee place can be secured there today.

I really don't think this leaves room for interpretation but personally I view it as an opinion being expressed and not as a hard fact.

Hott yes please lets just forget all the rumours and move on. Glad you have challenged the rogue in our midst as it surely can't have escaped the notice of at least a few others!
Now can we back back to beer and curry or wine and nibbles and preseason friendlies (although starting to have visions of angry parents screaming at each other - my schools better then your school - na na na na naaahh)!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fat/thin year: The current year 5 and 7 in most local prep schools have been jam-packed, with waiting lists. Years 4 and 6 have spaces, and in some schools have one less class than in 5 and 7. Obviously W&T take half their boys from state schools, but the prep schools provide a steady stream of feepayers, and this is a business after all.

And again, please read what is being said carefully. No-one has said that you can phone up and just get a place. But, they haven't filled their offers, and W has a date for a late entrance test at the start of next term to pick up boys who may be suitable but didn't apply first time round. This isn't new, it happens each year, and if you have checked on previous threads it has certainly been mentioned on here before, but I think that this test wasn't used last year as they did fill their offers, and boys were left on the waiting list. Again there is no suggestion that they will take simply anyone who can pay. And we know boys who have sat the late test and been awarded scholarships at that sitting.

Finally Cinder55 mentioned that the wide social mix gives certain problems. She has not implied that it is those on bursaries who are the problem.

I think a 'thin' year relates to the fact that for the 11+ cohort it is a low birth rate year - certainly next year and the year after are a much higher birth rate ie there are more children in total in the year group chasing the places.

burntout LOL. trust you to bring things back to a more normal level! I think perhaps the established W (or indeed T) parents reading this probably do have a good laugh at our rose tinted outlook but no doubt they were in the same position once. I assume a 'thin' year is one where acceptances are not as high as in previous years so more people on waiting list do receive offers?? In the case of W I would think this is due to economic climate/ fee increase/ less generous scholarship offers. There do appear to have been far more scholarships awarded at T and as their fees are already lower this presents a far better option financially.In a roundabout way I think this is the point that cinder55 was trying to make. Its a lot of money so carefully consider your options.
Anyway I'm leaving my rose tinted specs on for a bit longer - they make me look younger!

Easy to find which of his friends are are on bursaries btw - they will all be in detention! only joking!!!!!!!!!

seeline - No worries from my end , we have all been through too much here to fall out with each over mis-interpreted posts.
Anyway cinder55 post has certainly caused some debate which can only be a good thing I suppose and what forums like this are for.

Ill never get off now - checking and waiting for her response.

nothingyummymum - Parents shouldn't actually be surprised at the pre A level cull as its not hidden away, ive been trying to think where i read about it and have just found this published in the W 6th form curriculum booklet -

"Admission to the Sixth Form is not automatic, however, and internal students entering from the Upper Fifth Form are expected to achieve at least 21 points in their GCSE grades. (A = 4 points, A = 3 points, B = 2 points). The usual requirement for external candidates is seven GCSE passes at A/A grade. Certain subjects also have specific GCSE grade requirements and all students should achieve an A* or an A grade in the subjects they wish to pursue post 16. Similarly, students are expected to maintain these high academic standards throughout the Sixth Form."

Now we all know what we need to achieve not to get 'culled'!

Sorry...just re read Cinders post..got it wrong..Ds's DO benefit from bursaries....so I am now totally confused as to reasoning behind initial rant!

Just like to point out that Cinder55 initially states that Ds's DO NOT benefit from bursaries....so that's probably the underlying issue here!

Wrt to the whole 'social dynamics' thing... well, we'll have to cross those bridges if and when we come to them. As long as cinder55 isn't implying that there is bullying of boys on fee remission then I think we can handle it. Am well aware that there may be some boys in ds's class who will find it strange/amusing/whatever that he lives in a 2nd-floor flat rather than a 6-bed house with a pool but, hey ho! Maybe they'll learn something from him

I am in no way criticising the bursary system - my DS is at T and I have no idea which of his friends are on bursaries and/or scholarships. They all seem charming boys. Parental income has no reflection on standards of behaviour.
Neither were my comments directed at you in particular Burntout - my comment re injustice reflected my feeling that you were perhaps criticising Cinder55 for commenting on the burary/social mix issue when she herself was in receipt of bursaries. I am sorry if that wasn't clear.

seeline - I didn't see cinder55's post as a criticism of my choice, really couldn't care less (Iim too thick skinned for that!) decision made - done - move on! And by no means do I think that my Ds has reached Nirvana, I don't quite understand how you came to that conclusion. My positivity has been driven by the perception that the school meets my criteria for choice, if my Ds was more musical say, I perhaps wouldn't be so positive about the sports opportunities.

These schools of course have those issues you have mentioned (although not to the extent and tolerance of some states) but not necessarily due to the bursary system, as cinder55 and perhaps now you are intimating (apologies if you are not). Cant tell if I am really misreading this or it is being inferred that all DC's disciplined in these schools are on Bursaries? or the majority? This would be an interesting stat to have.

I have said that of course not all parents will be happy with their chosen school, and again cant understand where you could make the statement about being unrealistic.
Of course Cinder55 may be making a statement about attitudes there towards herself being in receipt of a bursary, so lets give her the chance to respond or clarify (if she wishes), her view on the social issues. These are of course issues that wont be published anywhere so are important to hear first hand.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what does a "thin" year mean?

As most parents who'd apply to schools like W,T et al and are about to potentially spend a small fortune, I have done months of research (driving DH insane!).
I have spoken to many existing W parents. One could hardly fault anything and her son was happier and performing better than he'd ever been at a very good prep school (not the one with the all-knowing Head where the rumour seems to be emanating from).
Another mum complained about the pre- A level "cull", saying her son had been warned to improve his academic performance or would not be accepted for A levels. He is on a sports scholarship.
Yet another said it had been the best decision they could have made - their DS is a geeky, withdrawn boy who has found his niche and has been allowed to be different.
I have also picked up that existing parents are not necessarily happy with the new boarding facilities and how that would be funded.
Quite a normal group, then, probably very representative of similar schools.

I have to echo that nobody would imagine W to be Nirvana. To get 8 boys in one year goup to Oxbridge is still pretty impressive to me, though..

But I agree, Fatal, the suggestion you could just call up for a place is hard to swallow. Especially after what you'd just been through!

Btw - I know of at least one person on this thread who was offered a place at T and not at W after interview?

I think it's the implication that you can just ring up and get a place that's rankled... all the talk of peacocks and capes has been very tongue in cheek after all.

I think most of us have our eyes wiiiide open. Doesn't stop the excitement spilling over sometimes though!

cinder55- you mention in para 4 about a bright boy at ds2 state primary who didn't get a place at w and then in para6 about communicating with hm at ds2 prep school. forgive me for being a little suspicious...

I don't think Cinder55 post was written the way you have interpreted. I know that you are all rejoicing in what your DSs have achieved - and rightly so, but they have not reached Nirvana!! These schools will have problems with bullying, fights, drugs, suspensions, expulsions etc. They do have a mix of pupils - partly due to the bursary system (which Cinder55 openly pointed out that she was in receipt of, so I think your injustice Burntout is bit misplaced!). If you are expecting all parents/pupils to be 100% happy about all aspects of the schools all of the time then you are being unrealistic. Cinder55 was simply pointing out some of the issues she has come across. You do need your eyes wide open to negotiate your way through the system - getting into the schools is only the first step. the point she was making about first-tier schools was in response to several posts made early on in these threads where there was a discussion on this point, not as a criticism of your choices.

LadyMuck - how do you find out whether a particular year is a thin or fat one?

Ladymuck ? don?t think cinder is just a messenger of others but also expressing her and others opinions, and hasn?t actually said that she is happy with her choice but that her DS,s are happy there.

cinder55 -
The reason your post is a bit of a shake up is that it is the first time I have heard a W parent being so negative about the school, (although of course there must be others) as most have given glowing reports.

In response I would like to add to what others here have said:

1. We know its not a top tier school, never has been. If you judge output to Oxbridge as a factor in choosing a school then W obviously isn't the choice for you.

2. It's almost as if your post is saying 'the children of those earning under £75k per year are creating issues in the social dynamic of the school'. I?m sure this is not what you mean but I am also, like others, very interested in the issues that are being created as it is this mix which makes W popular. I for one could have been someone who would have benefited greatly from the bursary system here (had my parents known about it) as someone who was a bright young child but would never normally have had the opportunity to attend a school like this. Conversely we are now in a position where we would not qualify for a bursary (although paying will be by no means easy) but do not begrudge those that have huge fee remissions ? good luck to them I say, if we could do it we would. We are just grateful that DS has a place here with a scholarship, it?s the ethos we wanted not the league table place.

3. My comment re class sizes was in comparison to state comprehensives not the super selectives.

Rumours, rumours, - we have said enough here to show that those rumours are hearsay or based on outcomes from just one small group from a single school. Of course all fee paying schools would need a percentage of full fee paying parents to survive, but the suggestion that you could just call and get a place sounds preposterous.

Not only that but actually posting that here shows a distinct lack of respect for those who have just been through a very taxing process with their children, are delighted with the outcome and are now coming to terms with a decision which in some cases is life changing. And also for those that are maybe now contemplating attending a school they would not choose for their bright DS knowing they passed the W test but just can?t afford to send their DS there, but someone who has the fee could call and get a place without the stress.

I?m sure that a lot of schools ?cull? at gcse level in that way, this I?m afraid is a by-product of the league tables that you seem to place so much importance on that losing ?bright boys? to other schools is becoming an issue that you (or others) actually complain to the school about. If they wanted ?the bright? boys you can bet your bottom dollar that the offers to them would have reflected that. I?m also not sure that the GCSE rankings are as important to them now as the other IB rankings, in any case all schools (bottom to top) will have some method of massaging the numbers to get up that table. btw 'bright' or 'not so bright' boys still both have chances of gaining good grades if the effort and teaching is good. So a 'not so bright' (hate that term!) boy with additional talent in some area makes for a richer environment in a school than all 'very bright' but nothing else - Sutton grammar anyone!

It sounds as if you yourself wanted something that the school didn?t/couldn?t deliver and perhaps are thinking that kcs etc would have been better choices for you.
I thank you for your opinion, although do hope that it?s a minority opinion within the school, as I for one would not like to think that the majority of parents share your view .

With regards to value for money , I for one will keep a close eye to make sure that my DS is getting all he can out of his time there, in clubs and activities etc and would hope to know way before the GCSE?s whether he is struggling to keep up.

We will go in with our eyes wide open, but more importantly with a positive attitude to our chosen school which we have all worked hard to get in to.