To Be Shocked That DS Got A 'D' In His First Half-Termly Report At Grammar School

No, I meant you were ill informed since you clearly don't know what accountants actually do, and instead resorted to media cliche. I could have said ill informed and lazy, but I restricted it to ill informed just in case rather than being lazy you had been ever so busy. It seems perhaps I was too charitable though. :(

Mordion - my experience of these 5 accountants would lead me to think 'other people' don't actually cross their minds let alone having an opinion of their 'dullness'.....!

3 are married to friends, 2 are married to each other (our DSs are school friends). My friends choose not to bring their OHs to social do's any more having each suffered a little in the past from having done so . (The 'incident' I saw was one bloke actually have a meltdown because people were taking too long to sit down for a restaurant meal. He actually walked out!) And the 'couple' "prefer not to socialise", which is of course entirely their right.

Just so you know why I've reached my conclusion about these 5 people I know who are linked by the fact they are all chartered accountants!

But dull's OK. We can't all be social dilettantes! It does take 'all sorts'.

But 'ill informed' as a retort to what I said? No, you mean 'You don't think the same way I do therefore you're wrong', don't you? .

@Grimma There isn't actually an oversupply of proper qualified accountants though. There's an oversupply of unqualified or part qualifiers, there's an oversupply of technicians, but the real deal? Not an over-supply (although there is a mismatch between the many different types of skill sets and the growth areas of opportunity). There is also an issue with the over 50s but that isn't restricted to one profession, it's an issue in many professions. :(

However - things are on the cusp of changing massively (although there will be tensions between the effects of the likely imminent changes) so, who knows where the future lies. I would say the same was true for inventors/entrepreneurs too though, especially those in manufacturing.

Of course you need all sorts of functions in a company (and outside - bankers even!) ...its the balance that is skewed.

Also, chemical engineers. :D But none of them can do it on their own. To successfully design something, bring it to the market and make a go of selling it long term and actually building a sustainable business you need to bring in people with all sorts of skills, including accountants.

a lot of the people who go bust do so because they didn't think this element of it through properly, not because they had a crap idea.

I think that scientists are undervalued, specifically undervalued in financial terms
tell me about it!

'making stuff' includes the output of scientists not just engineers. Dysons and drugs; people who can dream up the advanced materials to make eg, advanced microchips and then the people who write the code which runs on them (software engineers as well as mech eng!).

Erebus I expect they think you are dull too. Also, ill informed. :)

@grimma indeed but it would have looked a bit self congratulatory for me to say that, wouldn't it. :D

Scientists and engineers are slightly different animals though, aren't they? I think that scientists are undervalued, specifically undervalued in financial terms, despite the politically motivated push to make all bright children do 3 sciences at GCSE whether they want to or not (which is an appalling thing to do, in my opinion). It's a real shame that successive governments of both hues have got this so very wrong.

As I said, I have, as a result of my career, met a lot of inventor entrepreneurs and none of them were typical academically minded people. I thought from the original post on this sub-topic - which talked about making money, and seemed to be manufacturing biased, rather than designing great bridges, for example (which rarely make any money, not for years and years) - that it was that sort of person the poster was wanting to see more of.

That and peer group...DDs friends all seem to want to be vets.

And, imho, engineers shall inherit the Earth.

I genuinely think that- I believe those who can take stuff, do stuff to it and make it into other, more useful stuff are those we will desperately need in the coming end-days of oil.

We won't have quite so much need for those who move money from a to b whilst skimming a bit off the top of each transaction or those who count the money as it crosses their desks.

It's funny the reputation 'accountancy' has, isn't it?!

I must say that it's also unfortunate that all the accountants I know (5) are profoundly dull people but I know that that doesn't mean all accountants are dull!

I think the fact the remark came from an 11 year old is the most important fact. I have a 'friend' who has sent her DS private. When he is asked what he wants to do after school he says 'be a solicitor'. Last month, someone asked him, now 14, what a solicitor does. He said 'I dunno'... ie his mum wants him to be an accountant, he just parrots what she says!

For the record, the superbright at DSs state comp, those with maths 'A' levels at 12, want to be actuaries!

Anyway, we digress.

I don't believe engineers are undervalued I just think most people can't be engineers. And I think a classroom in a super selective grammar possibly isn't the place to go looking for the people who do have those skills.

I would guess that what you are thinking of as 'engineer' isn't quite the same as modern reality...therein lies the problem. (not that most people can't do it. Most people can't be first-rate accountants either.)

And grammar schools are exactly where many (probably most) good scientists have arisen in the past.

There is a pyschological theory that children shouldn't be praised for their cleverness instead for the amount of effort they have put in as when they come across things that are difficult they think their inability to do the task means they are stupid. So they stop trying as they don't want to prove that this is right. There maybe a bit of this going on. If your DS was told at primary school he was great at maths and he was really clever at it when he's reached Grammar and discovered that there are hard things he has stopped trying rather than putting extra effort in to solve the problems. He sounds bright enough and it's only the first term. Personally I would be careful not to put too much emphasis on why everyone else is doing better -tutoring etc as it only gives him an out as to why he's not doing well unless of course you think he is really working as hard as he can.

@grima I work internationally. In Germany - since you mentioned it specifically - Wirtschaftsprufers have a very high status indeed. Certainly higher and better respected than in this country. The educational requirements are much higher too for the lowest level of entry. Te only country I can think of off the top of my head where accountants are slightly lower status is the USA where, as we know, lawyers rule and where they of course control one element of the traditional accountant's domain, tax.

I don't believe engineers are undervalued I just think most people can't be engineers. And I think a classroom in a super selective grammar possibly isn't the place to go looking for the people who do have those skills.

I think you are confusing book keeping with accountancy .

I suspect that if this school is in outer London the simple explanation is that many of the children have parents who are accountants

Not sure why you think children in Germany would have amazing aspirations , the German education system is renowned for its rigidity.

Oh yes, I forgot the third sector. Without accountants the third sector would be completely stuffed, right outtolunch?

Selective or superselective school?

If superselective I really wouldn't worry. Certainly our schools locally take the top 10% approx. Therefore, by a simple matter of statistics (and I know it isn't as straight forward as this) even the " bottom child" in ability is going to be brighter /more able than 90/100 of his peers. (so you would be in the top 3 ina junior class of 30..)

Leaving the accountants etc aside LOL I'd have a chat with school/form tutor to ask if there are any issues and that just try to address the possible " laziness" issues, and wait and see.

It could be that they've done a relatively small number of assessments on which to base the mark and one or two were where he didn't get the point of the task or something and dragged the overall result down.

I have no idea how prevalent tutoring is at grammar schools. We have never done it at all, at we can't unique in that.

It's likely that several of the class have parents who are accountants.

And in fact I wouldn't necessarily recommend anyone who is 11 to consider the profession, to be honest, the way things are. However that's got nothing to do with boredom - quite the reverse in fact. Interesting times.......

@tiggy - the way you describe accountancy sounds amazing. Also, sadly, hugely wide of the mark in both directions - you emphasise a downside that doesn't really exist and an upside that is sadly a thing of the past for anyone under 55 (the stuff like good pensions).

Oh, I know accountants are necessary...in other (thriving) countries they seem to have a relatively lower status though, its not something the brightest would necessarily be looking towards at age 11. I wonder what the aspirations are in a similar class in Germany. Probably has more to do with the undervaluing of scientists and especially engineers in our society

I am an accountant, I have a degree from Durham , so was no slouch academically and trained with a top 5 firm ( the top in fact) .

It really annoys me when the cliches about accountancy come out . To be a good accountant you need to be both numerate and literate , you need not just to understand and interpret the numbers yourself but also to be able to explain those conclusions to your client . The modern profession is very customer focused and excellent communication skills are vital.

It's an excellent all round training; as an audit trainee you could be in a different business almost every couple of weeks , you need to be able to work in teams and for a variety of managers simultaneously You need the confidence to talk to members of the clients accounts teams who may not have as high a level of education as yourself and may not understand what your purpose is , you need to get the confidence of those people and yearn to ask the right question to get the right answer.

In my first year I saw the inside of all sorts of business from Hotels to reinsurers to sherry producers . I had a much more interesting time than some desk bound university contemporaries.

I have never had any problem getting a job either .the skills are very transferable . I now work for a largish charity , I have an intellectually stimulating role and it's fairly family friendly .Many accountants travel the world and manage to work as an accountant while they do it.

So whilst it may not be as glamorous as some other jobs please do not dismiss us as boring number crunchers .

Isn't it quite normal for super-smart children to flounder a bit when they move up from primary? They come up against other clever children and have to learn to work for their marks rather than coast. I am sure it has been a shock for you all but sometimes these things are excellent learning opportunities. Your son is obviously v clever and has good support at home, he will surely do well.

Bear in mind that the "half the class want to be accountants" remark came from an 11 year old. It probably meant that the child next to him when asked what he wanted to be when he grew up said "an accountant" because it was the first profession he could think of.

If it helps, my dd was in set 6 of 7 all the way through grammar school and got an A at GCSE. Usually the sets get smaller as they get lower, so there is more individual attention.

Am interested in your OP. DD was level 6 for maths and English by year 5 and at super selective grammar she was in the bottom third of her class for maths. I was surprised (she has been at normal primary schools, no tutor) as she has soaked up maths like a sponge and never had any difficulty understanding. Discussed this at the parent's evening and within 2 terms she had moved to the top third. I think it was just a few areas she hadn't been taught because of moving from school to school, and once explained, she understood. She also lost some marks with silly mistakes on an early paper, and she hardly does that now.