A question for Toby Young and Thomas Packer at the West London Free School

Because children learn from each other? And the point of the school is not just for those at the top to be top!
A school is a learning environment.

I am using an example of the local school which doesn't set (St Mark's Catholic School in Hounslow) and is proud of its achievements in English. I met someone who was doing English A-Level there, and asked her how she felt about mixed ability sets in previous few years, and whether it had held her back. She looked at me as if I was mad.

But how is lack of setting beneficial to those at the top?

what a horrid snobby thread this is

Our RC school only bands for Maths, for first year. It bands a very few subjects (Maths, English and MFL) for second year. Everything else is successfully taught in mixed ability. Another, I may add very successful, local RC comprehensive is mixed ability to GSCE for English, and it has done their English results no harm at all.

My son is in the second set for English, so I suppose it doesn't bother me that he is banded. But if he was in the third set, and he may yet drop down to it, I would feel that his chances of expanding his ideas would be more limited. Surely whole point of academic comprehensive is that you don't band so rigorously, but just teach well/brilliant curriculum/behaviour management.

If the Free School doesn't band in the first year, I am beginning to think, good on it, because it is having more faith in the innate abilities and teamwork of the classes.

Please read that article in Telegraph Sat weekend about Maths sets in general [Education section]. It is so so contradicts what you are all spouting on this thread.

I also meant to add that the harsh reality in some schools is that their student body is such that they use 'setting' across the board to get the oiks (read: ill disciplined, disruptive, inattentive) out of the classes where the more-likely-to-pass DC are taught. This is why I chose the school I did for the DC- DS1 is clever and in set one or two for everything. DS2 is less academic but is taught in the same classes (albeit 2 years later!) as DS1, ie focused, purposeful, well-disciplined classes of mixed ability. In maths where DS2 is in set 3 (of 5), the only 'difference' is that the other DC in the class are of the same ability and therefore appropriately taught. (As an aside, I think Maths and maybe MFL are the 2 subjects where, really, you will see spectacular differences in ability in the same year group; one DC struggling with 3 digit addition, the next performing complex algebra). This school doesn't have to shove its dross into a (low) set to get it away from the quality as 95% of the DC are 'quality', just of varying ability- though I might add of generally higher-than-average ability as they are the DC of MC parents.

Actually, I don't think we can make sweeping statements like 'there is no evidence to suggest that setting is beneficial', because I'd say there's quite strong evidence that in some settings for some subjects it is beneficial. Maths springs to mind.

I think it would depend on the size and skills (and behavioural!) mix of a class of DC. If they're private or selective (given that private equals selective), or if they're a school you've attacked the gates with battering rams to get your DC into (WLFS) you'll probably have less diversity in a class therefore less need to differentiate. It is ironic that some of our most 'exclusive' selective schools are the most 'set'!

There is no evidence to suggest that setting is beneficial. In a good school, teachers will differentiate to ensure all students make the appropriate progress.
If setting is important to you, you are free to choose another school. In my school, we do set in year 7, but any system presents compromises.

livinginchiswick, my DS started year 7 this year at WLFS and he also got very high level 6 in maths and English in year 6. He is in mix class and he gets separate work and extension and lots of homework( work book) along side other high ability children. Like you,we were worried and nearly turned down his place for bursary at independent, thank goodness we didn't. I'm sure the school needs to support and stretch the high ability kids as well as supporting the one struggling, to get the result they are hoping to.

We are very very happy with the school and DS comes home with big smiling every day. I hope this helps.

UM- re 'setting', my DSs' secondary (comp) sets in Maths four weeks into Y7, then MFL at the start of Y8. They don't set for anything else. There are DC there with maths A levels in Y7; and one who's just left, at 14, to go to uni to do economics, having passed a string of GCSEs with A's.

It is the top performing comp, academically, in the county. So no, you don't have to set in everything!

Yep, molly, it was that particular piece of bumlickery. And I am not at all surprised that these supposedly fabulous children misbehave like anything on the Tube, if you put them in a stupid straitjacket at school then all the energy is going to come out somewhere.

We have a free school near where we live - set up by parents who disagreed with the middle school closing, and fair dos so far... But the uniform costs 3 times what the uniform in DD's secondary costs. And because the council has changed the rules on eligibility for school transport, it is effectively the case that children in the town where this school is based, whose parents are on low incomes, have no real school choice. They cannot afford to send their children to the secondary in my town, which makes me very suspicious about deals having been done.

I emailed the school with an admissions question and mr young himself replied almost straight away ......

"Please I do not wish this threat to become another endless trial and stoning of Mr. Young."

But OP, would you have asked this open question on MN if it was about any other school?

Bizarre op!

Will you let us know what they reply?

Was it the "Is this the strictest state school in Britain" DM article, pointyfangs?
Irrelevant, I know, but I have the misfortune to share a tube carriage with quite a lot of these respectful children most mornings... Literally hell on wheels

What HanSolo said.

Isn't this the wonderful thing about free schools though? Just like any private school, you don't have to go there. But if you like what you see you can choose to apply. But if you have a really specific question about setting in subjects, why would you raise it on here, and not directly with the school. Don't think that those guys are on here that often.

I'm a maths teacher and I think that setting is a bloody great idea. We set after half term in Y7 and I'm looking forward to it. We used to set at Christmas but the whole department agreed that was too long and was doing the children a disservice at both the bottom and top end. I expect that the WLFS will learn soon enough, but it's young and inexperienced atm

Also, why was the DM piece all about Toby Young? He's neither a teacher nor the head there.

Telegraph weekend (Sat or Sun??)just had an article in the "education" bit about the woman who wrote Elephant in the Room; she believes that Maths setting is not a good idea.

It is a bit odd this thread...I thought quite the opposite when listening to his speech - that children would be pressured rather than let slide. It put me off. All those 5pm days, "no excuses", no sick notes for games, commit yourself to long practising schedules if you got a music place. I disliked the ethos as presented by headmaster and deputy. Although I liked Toby Young's speech for some reason. He is a good communicator. They were not.

"Just looked at cost of blazer - not bad price ?38 ".

"Having said that, DD1 got L6 in Yr6 last year - she was in a maths top set, but the range of ability spanned 4C to 6C. Her maths teacher handled it, so clearly it is possible for some very able teachers."

I think you'll find this is the case in most year 6 classrooms....!

DD's blazer is ?21. Total cost of mandatory school items is ?46 - everything else can be bought on the high street in her school. I would think ?38 would be beyond the range of a lot of low income families.

I am also very at getting up when teacher or other adult enters the room - disruptive to lessons and a useless token gesture, nothing to do with any genuine respect. And having read what TY wrote about disabled children in schools and wheelchair ramps link here I would not take his word for it if he told me the sun was hot. He's a twat.

Just looked at cost of blazer - not bad price £38 .

Alot of schools dont set until Yr8 - luckily my DS secondary will set Yr7 after this half term.

My DS was set for Maths throughout junior but not for Englisg - it is felt that English can be taught with varying levels through out the class.

Sitting level 6 doesn't necessarily mean that they will achieve a level 6 -it's still early days re this in primary school I feel and no doubt they will change the threshold again - maths last year was 68 % in the trial year it was 50%.

I saw the pieces that DM has written - I feel that any state school with good/strong leadership can maintain discipline etc .

How much do those blazers cost that are from the same suppliers as Eton - could anyone tell me say - I bet a bit more that the ?30 or so I paid for my sons big standard black -which they all must wear .

I'm an English teacher and I teach mixed ability at KS3. It's no bother as long as you have time to prepare and plan for all the kids. In fact, it's beneficial in a lot of ways.