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Original poster

More on early GCSEs

32 replies

WilfSell · 12/09/2012 21:32

DS1 has just told me that apparently they are beginning work for their GCSEs in RE and ICT this year. He has just started Y9. I have no idea what I think about this yet, and would really like the opportunity to find out why from the teachers but until parents' evening, there seems to be no chance to talk to them.

DS1 is so underwhelmed by both subjects that the idea of actually putting any work in at this stage is challenging me him and he's got it into his head that RE won't make the slightest bit of difference to his life so it doesn't matter; and that ICT is so pointless and easy, that doesn't matter either, although he like it marginally more than RE.

I really, really WANT to leave him to his own devices and make his own decisions about how to handle this but he's 13 and knows it ALL AREADY Wink. I don't suppose the school think we have a choice either here.

He will almost certainly be on track for other early GCSE next year, and is fairly able but for one thing he is not yet mature enough to realise he needs to improve his general writing and literacy skills to do well in critical, discursive subjects like RE. So, does he HAVE to do it this year or can I he refuse? Is it better to get it out of the way if he doesn't care about it, even if I think he'd benefit from being stretched in 'written' subjects like RE/humanities? Should I just leave him to get on with it and not care that he thinks it is pointless so he doesn't have to bother with it?

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choccyp1g · 15/09/2012 13:08

I can see a case for doing ICT early, as it could get you up to speed with all the IT skills which are then used for studying and presenting your work in the other subjects.

Original poster
WilfSell · 15/09/2012 10:05

It's the 'less able' bit that bothers me about that. If you convert that into 'less mature' which usually means boys, like my son, who are brilliant at maths and science right now, but MUCH slower and always have been at any written subject, then it is unfair to encourage them to do 'worse' than they could with an examination in Y11. If they are very talented and they do wish to go on to a university course which is highly competitive and selective, then their 3 resits in English would count against them. Additionally if even these able students - as noblegiraffe said - are doing worse than they could with other timetables, then it isn't allowing them to achieve their full potential when they are ready to achieve it.

I am fairly sure my son will mature into writing soon, but he won't be ready to do well in RE any time soon. Or English, or History etc..

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BeingFluffy · 15/09/2012 07:47

I have a DD age 13 in year 9 who will sit the full RE GCSE at the end of the academic year and also Spanish GCSE - the various components being spread over the year. She will also do more than 50% of English GCSE this year and sit maths and English GCSE terminal exams in January of year 10. Plus two more GCSEs at the end of year 10. It is a comprehensive school.

I used to be totally against early entry, but having seen the stress that DD1 was under, sitting the whole lot at the end of year 11, I am not so sure. She goes to a super selective grammar.

The Headteacher of DD2's school also said that some children only pass English at the second or even third attempt, because frankly some people have better brains than others. He said there are plenty of drivers on the road who only passed their test the third time round, so why not allow the less able to resit exams before they leave school?

noblegiraffe · 14/09/2012 23:28

That's a really tricky question, wilf, I can see why it would be really tempting for a school that doesn't have a sixth form to enter kids for AS because it will make them look pushy and academic without having to worry about picking up the pieces in Y12.

I suppose I might contact the local sixth forms and ask what their opinion is of students who come from your DS's school having sat maths early and whether it disadvantages them either in results or uni applications.

I would also contact the school with concerns about early entry to GCSE affecting results (quoting the DfE guidance) and ask specifically about numbers of A*s in maths and stats compared to FFT targets, and ALPs targets (or whatever system they use to track results against expectations at AS) in Y11. You want guarantees that his ability to access the top grades won't be affected.
I don't know whether you could refuse to enter your DS for the exams if they muff it.

creamteas · 14/09/2012 23:18

At my DC's school, the top set take Maths GCSE early. They then spend their time doing free standing bridging units (I have no idea what these are, only that they are from Warwick uni!).

This has improved the grades at AS/A2 significantly. It also means that those kids who do really well up to GCSE in Maths, but can't shift up to A level don't waste an option on something they can't manage,

webwiz · 14/09/2012 23:11

My friend's DS took his Maths GCSE in year 10 and got an A. He then went straight onto AS and it was a bit of a disaster and he needed lots of resits to get to a reasonable A level grade - it was just too difficult to fit make the jump to A level alongside GCSE subjects. He was at a level 8 at the end of year 9 so was a good mathematician. My friend wishes he had just taken it all at the right time as it ended up affecting his university choices.

I was the opposite with DD2 (same age but at a different school) I wanted her to take the GCSE early but her school don't like early entry. She got an A in year 11 and then an A at A level without resitting any modules. With hindsight taking the exams at the right time was the best option.

Original poster
WilfSell · 14/09/2012 23:09

I know this approach to early A levels is similar in medicine applications, not that I'm presuming anything about DS1 (on current form, he will be playing in a band while working in McDs if he has his way) but I know what he is capable of and while - being a university lecturer meself - I'm not so fussed about Oxbridge etc, I do want him to have the best shot he can at what he is good at.

Is this one of the things that Gove might actually sort out before DS1 gets to his exams? Not that I'd ever own up to agreeing with the fool of course. Grin

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MordionAgenos · 14/09/2012 23:07

Taking GCSEs a year early seems to work ok at Dd1s school (up to now anyway).

Original poster
WilfSell · 14/09/2012 23:05

Yes, of course. Oh good grief, now I'm going to have to worry about maths. If you were me (you sound like a teacher noblegiraffe?) how would you handle it?

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noblegiraffe · 14/09/2012 23:04

This link from Cambridge University specifically advises against early entry for A-levels. It points out that if you want to sit a maths-based course at uni, but took your maths A-level in Y11 and Y12 you would then have the possibility of having spent Y13 not studying maths and would be at a disadvantage when starting the course. I think some universities do not count the early A-level in your offer as they want you to show that you can get the required results from sitting all three specified A-levels at the same time, thus showing you can cope with the workload.

noblegiraffe · 14/09/2012 22:58

Students who take AS in Y11 are going to be the brightest mathematicians, so if there is evidence of lower results, it will be affecting bright mathematicians. I've not been able to find any specific web link about the effect of sitting AS in Y11 but certainly the consensus on the TES maths forum is that it affects results. When my school was investigating options for our top sets, we also came to the same conclusion from discussions with other schools so we decided against it for that reason.

Early entry to GCSE definitely disadvantages students, even at the top end. The DfE details all the evidence here. It seems that if a bright student gets an A in Y10, they are unlikely to be offered the opportunity to resit and get an A in Y11 although they could have got an A if they'd sat at the proper time. They would then also have been more likely to progress to A-level. Students who get lower grades are more likely to be offered the chance to resit, but an A is seen as 'good enough'.

Original poster
WilfSell · 14/09/2012 22:49

Ah it's not good is it,if their options are limited by the school. What to do about it? Has any parent tried to refuse?

I guess if I knew it was likely to have poor outcomes, I'd perhaps consider moving DS1 but the school seems good overall. How do we really know, we're all novices at this business, so the school knows best approach is all we can go with. Argh.

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Toughasoldboots · 14/09/2012 22:37

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
WilfSell · 14/09/2012 22:32

PS he's already supposed to be doing GCSE Stats this year, in Y9.

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Original poster
WilfSell · 14/09/2012 22:28

Really noble? eeek.

DS1 is a very able mathematician, as are many others in his set. He got 100% in his Y6 SATs which probably isn't so unusual in people who are good at maths, and has been fasttracked by the school. So I suppose I've been happy with the approach so far. So I'd be really interested to hear about whether the evidence on AS in Y11 affects students of all abilities as a generality, and whether able students are somehow more immune?

The school doesn't have a sixth form btw so he'd have to go somewhere else anyway. Perhaps if he is still into maths at that point, we'll need to find somewhere that will provide appropriate Y12/13 options? The options are likely to be a pretty poor sixth form college nearby, a pretty good one (AFAIK) a long way way, a catholic selective and a private selective.

He is oblivious to all my angst of course, and wishes I would just Stop Asking Him about school. I won't though

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noblegiraffe · 14/09/2012 22:22

Kids who sit GCSE maths early then start AS in Y11 tend not to do very well at AS compared to those who sit it in Y12 as they are supposed to, I believe. Then they are faced with the dilemma of resitting in Y12, when the best unis frown on resits. There is also the issue of then being tied to the school for further education because other sixth forms won't be set up for kids who already have AS maths and want to do A2, especially if they teach a different exam board. It's much better for schools to offer breadth at GCSE, so additional maths, or GCSE stats or a FSMQ would be a better option than just plowing on with AS.

Myliferocks · 14/09/2012 22:08

My DD took ICT and DT in yr 10 at her old school.
The school do this for 2 reasons.
The first is to free up timetable space in yr 11.
The second is that the school have found over the years that most students tend to neglect these subjects in yr 11 for their other subjects.

Original poster
WilfSell · 14/09/2012 22:03

Pottering, yes, he has just told me today that in fact it is a bit of the whole programme so he'll be doing some assessments this year but not completing it till whenever. Mainly it is his dripfeed of information and the lack of info from the school that is the issue. I do wish I could just let the professionals get on with their job but I can't leave alone Grin

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PotteringAlong · 14/09/2012 21:58

I'm a head of RE in a comp and I start RE GCSE in year 9, not to do early entry, but because school only allow me 1 hour per week and the only possible way to teach a full course is to do it over 3 years. It might be that reason he's started early? It's not an uncommon scenario in RE departments.

Original poster
WilfSell · 14/09/2012 21:55

Nope, he sees it as being how his world is as a 13 yo. No need for the concern, I'm quite able to challenge his world view meself.

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Knowsabitabouteducation · 14/09/2012 21:47

I seriously hope that he doesn't see black/white thinking as anything to do with science.

Original poster
WilfSell · 14/09/2012 21:35

Hey listen, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. FWIW I was actually half joking and half parroting DS!. I teach a subject very close to RE meself in a university and it is constantly derided in the world at large, so any humour on my part was meant to be self-effacing but you wouldn't know that!

Of course, you'll see from some of my comments also that I VALUE critical/discursive subjects such as RE; I just wish I could just get my son, who sees the world in black and white like a scientist and cannot see the point of writing, or religion, I know I'd be fighting a losing battle trying to get him to aspire to a decent grade. In which case, I do think there is little point in him doing it early,since he will not do very well I predict. The maths, no problem as i am fairly sure, if he carries on as now, he can achieve an A/A* early. But then I'm mixed up about what happens later: am happy he'll be stretched and in maths there is really no point in making them wait when they can just do it. But as I understand it, he'll be doing AS maths in Y11. In which case, what would he do in Y12/13 if he wanted to go on and do maths at A2? I'm v confused.

I really really want him to mature into writing, as even die-hard scientists need to be able to do it. I fear it may well be too soon for him in these kinds of skills/sensitivities and the RE experience may switch him off from it. It doesn't help that the RE teacher is apparently dull and simply bores them all to sleep. Ho hum.

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Knowsabitabouteducation · 14/09/2012 21:31

Take your agenda to another thread

Ilovegeorgeclooney · 14/09/2012 21:16

Yes Gove is so against early entry he is standing by as pupils who sat early entry in GCSE English in Jan 2012 achieved a C grade at 12.5% lower than one who sat the exam in June 2012. Approx 75,000 16 year olds are wishing their schools had sat English early entry. Sorry secret the recent results have justified school's actions and made Gove look a complete fool.

SecretSquirrels · 14/09/2012 16:50

I think early entry in any subject is a huge mistake except for cases where the child is guaranteed an A*. Mostly it is done for the school's benefit so they can "bank" some grade Cs and above.
GCSEs are designed for 16 year olds, "useless" RE involves a lot of philosophy and Ethics. My DS would have done very badly in it at 13 but got A* in RE at 16 when he was much more mature.
Plus I hear Mr Gove plans to stop schools doing early entry?

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