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Original poster

State grammar schools compared with independent schools

162 replies

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 10/09/2012 22:09

What are the most significant differences?

I am reading the Good Schools Guide and it is generally gushing about grammar schools and implies that you can get a £13k/year education for free. However I would have thought that class sizes would be larger at grammar schools, maybe other differences too.

I went to a state comp, there were 30 in my class, although I think that was partly because we were 'subsidising' the lower sets to have about 12 in the class.

DS is Y6 at prep school and can continue to Y8, around 15 in his class. We are concerned that he is probably quite vulnerable to bullying etc., although he hasn't that issue because the children at his prep school are all vair nice. Am a bit suspicious of state schools on this front, but that might not be fair.

It might all be irrelevant as we are in Surrey and no grammars here, but we are looking to move anyway was curious before committing to spend £100k on DS' secondary education (and then potentially the same again for DD).

OP posts:
Blu · 13/09/2012 16:55

It would be a luxury, in school choice terms, having that choice!

And Shagmund doesn't say who she is bitter and angry with - herself, the state, her local education authority OR people who have more choices.....

breadandbutterfly · 13/09/2012 16:41

OP, is your DS actually struggling or SEN at all? He just sounds like a normal, quiet, 10 year-old - not all 10-year-old boys are loud and fighty, plenty of sensitive ones out there. He sounds like he'd cope fine at any mainstream school,private or state,unless I'm missing something here. Why does he need to go to a school for 'nerdy' types per se?

happygardening · 13/09/2012 16:40

My goodness the luxury of being able to choose between a grammar and a private school.
I need to not read threads like this.
As Ive said "Many pro state are pretty hostile" I rest my case.

Shagmundfreud · 13/09/2012 15:58

My goodness the luxury of being able to choose between a grammar and a private school.

I need to not read threads like this.

happygardening · 13/09/2012 15:50

OP what ever school you ask about whether it will be state or independent someone will tell you its the best school in the world and someone else will cheerfully regale you with a horror story.
If you like More House and think its right for your DS that all that matters. Go and look at it ask relevant questions and its always worth comparing it with others even those you don't like the look of. Being able to pay opens up a broad choice but choice is not necessarily freedom.

StreathamHillary · 13/09/2012 13:52

OP, would it help to ask for suggestions for a school that would suit a child with ASD? You need help from parents with specific knowledge and experience.

seeker · 13/09/2012 13:50

Many degree and other courses like a GCSE in a MFL.

Not even having the option of doing one is a potential door closer. Particularly if the emphasis on the EBacc continues.

Original poster
SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 13/09/2012 13:48

Thank you mummytime, yes, I am quite wary.

According to the prospectus they do

English (Language and Literature - not sure if this means one or two)
2 or 3 * science
Maths
3 from a long list of soft subjects plus Geography and History

However in terms of ASD I am much more concerned that he develops better social skills, etc., as this is vital for life, whereas having 8 GCSEs instead of 11 isn't really going to affect anybody. I don't think anyone has ever asked me about mine.

It says in the handbook www.morehouseschool.co.uk/student-handbook-2011-12.pdf "More House School is a specialist school for boys who find learning hard", which I wouldn't necessarily say applies to my DS. He is no way struggling at his entirely mainstream almost-no-SEN-support prep school.

I guess for parents of boys who are struggling with work it would be a much easier decision.

Anyway, will get a better idea next week.

OP posts:
mummytime · 13/09/2012 13:34

If your son is bright I personally would be very wary of sending him to More House as they really don't tend to come out with the number of GCsEs that bright ASD kids do from mainstream schools (I considered it for my dyslexic son, but it was too expensive, too hard to get to, and he seemed unlikely to get as many GCSEs there as in main stream state).

Blu · 13/09/2012 13:27

A school that doesn't offer languages?
I'm not up to speed with this yet, but would that mean they can't get the E Bacc?
It's a big opportunity / option to remove from the curriculum.

Blu · 13/09/2012 13:25

HappyGardener: Like Seeker I am not hostile to any sector per se, nor hostile about precise criticism of named state schools. Or convinced by generalisations about the benefits of unspecified schools just because they are independent.

I am made cross by threads which assume that state education per se, and especially it's pupils, are to be regarded with suspicion, while the same generalising assumes that all independent education is marvellous and its students are naice..

I WENT to a private school. I fully support and agree with the reasons some of my v good friends have chosen fab schools which happen to be independent.

Unfortunately I find many threads on MN which do raise my hackles. As the mother of a wolf. That is what I respond to.

None of us will get anywhere making generalisations, spouting stuff which is based on rumour and prejudice.

Original poster
SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 13/09/2012 13:11

Like what? Diplomat? Translator?

Actually he does French and Latin at the moment and I don't think he finds it too bad, though he is in set 2, though if there were more than 2 sets he would perhaps not be at the bottom.

I have an A at GCSE in German but can't really speak any German at all. My French is a little better however.

I was slightly surprised, but we will try and get a handle on the other boys there and whether it's the right environment for him (we are going to a more traditional private school on Saturday, a selective one, albeit not hugely selective, and one that is 2/3 boarders, which I'm not keen on), and if it is then that's fine.

He's clearly not going to lose interest in Maths, Science, computers, etc.

OP posts:
seeker · 13/09/2012 12:55

In would be wary because it doesn't allow for children to change and develop. And lots of career paths are made more difficult at least, if not closed off without at least a C in GCSE in a modern foreign language.

Original poster
SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 13/09/2012 12:32

Why is that sue?

It's a school for children who have language-related problems, ASD, dyslexia, etc.

I guess they have decided it's better not to try and force children already struggling with English to do French as well.

The learning support staff seems to be almost as large as the teaching staff: seven literacy tutors, eight speech & language therapists, three occupational therapists, plus a head and deputy head of department, which is quite a lot I think for 380 students, although apparently every boy has his own individual timetable which includes learning support time, so obviously they are all needed.

There's a brief mention here in the context of an autistic boy:

www.treatingautism.co.uk/parents-stories/309/a-journey-back-to-happiness/

" When we had our tour, we both knew it was the 'right' school for Alex. Small class sizes, lessons delivered so that they were accessible, and up to four hours of individual SLT, OT and literacy tuition each week. More importantly, the boys there were so similar to Alex, we knew he would integrate socially. He went for an assessment day and loved it. Luckily, he was offered a place."

The author of this blog is a parent there:

specialneedsjungle.com/2009/07/05/morehouseaschooltobeproudof/

Apparently she started off paying the fees but the place is now funded by the LEA (statemented), although from what I gather most (2/3) parents pay their own way.

OP posts:
seeker · 13/09/2012 11:16

I agree, Sue.

You are likely to get smaller classes in independents- it's a money thing. But small classes aren't necessarily the holy grail many people think they are.

sue52 · 13/09/2012 11:10

Skippy I would be wary of any school, state or private, that does not offer languages.

happygardening · 13/09/2012 10:39

catwoo I dont think anyone is denying that small classes exist in the state sector at primary level.
Seeker I know of some children who've even managed to emerge from Perry Court the weirdest of all the Steiner schools surprisingly normal and have gone off to the Kent Grammars for A levels and and done very well. OK only a few but it can happen!

catwoo · 13/09/2012 10:17

my DD goes to a state primary where there are 3 classes with 12,14,and 15 pupils respectively.So class size argument doesn't always hold up

seeker · 13/09/2012 09:39

Ah. I might make an exception for Steiner! Grin

happygardening · 13/09/2012 09:37

You are right seeker no one should generalise about any sector even the the weird like Steiner! People have incorrect views of both prejudice is not just confined to those in the independent sector.

seeker · 13/09/2012 08:43

I'm happy to criticise any sector. However hackles do tend to go up when using the state sector is described as throwing a child to the wolves! Some of us on here are the parents of those wolves, you know!

I honestly think that you can't generalise about any sector. My dd's very traditional old fashioned grammar school is very different from her cousin's forward thinking dynamic one. My ds's high school is very different from the one in the next town. And my godson's pushy pressure cooker of a prep school with stellar results and a bullying culture that makes my bold boil is very different from the fantastic, nurturing, joyful, happy one with equally stellar results whose pupils go blackberry picking in the field up the road from me.

Independents generally have much more money and therefore better facilities. And because they are all selective- either academically or financially- they have generally rich and an higher % of more engaged parents than no selectives.

exoticfruits · 13/09/2012 07:46

Presumably they are happy for someone else to get scratched to get it out- or do they live in a world where you just buy a replacement?!

exoticfruits · 13/09/2012 07:44

Not in year 6 anyway!

exoticfruits · 13/09/2012 07:43

I don't think that I would want mine at a school where they won't retrieve a frisbee in case they get scratched!

happygardening · 13/09/2012 07:30

OP you unwittingly stumbled into a MN long running often acrimonious debate state versus indepednent. Many pro state are pretty hostile to any critisms of wonderful state ed.
I believe I answered you question this is only my experience and Im sure others will dispute this but it is a valid view as unlike many I have children in both sectors.

One other point
"Class sizes at private academically selective schools are often the same as state grammars"
If this matters to you and I think the jury is out on how imortant it is ask at any schools you look at. At my DS's school no class is bigger than 18 and some are smaller but then that reflects in the size of the fees!

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