Wilsons, Wallington, Tiffin, Sutton – why so many applications? Are parents kidding themselves?

Womanonthebus,

Don't panic yet!

I'm no expert on this, but the one thing I would strongly recommend is practice timing, timing, and more timing. The Tiffin test (particulary NVR) is very very difficult to complete in 50 minutes and that's what seems to trip many children up. There's no point in getting the first 65 questions right and then having to guess the last 15 because you've run out of time.

Most tutors won't do anything that you can't do at home, but the one advantage I think that some provide (particularly when it is group tutoring) is that the children will sit many, many timed tests surrounded by other children all doing the same thing. This is invaluable experience. Has your DS sat the sutton mock? Again, invaluable experience.

I actually think most children don't sit all four exams. Our closest school is Tiffins (10 min bus ride away) but very very few local children sit the exam. Most parents don't think it's worth the effort as they think their children won't get in or they have just heard it's extremely pressured once you're in and they don't want that for their children. Of the very few who do sit the Tiffin test, a very low percentage of them will sit for Sutton Grammar as well but a negligible number will sit for Wallingtons and the same for Wilsons. It's just too far a slog across two boroughs.

Sutton and Tiffins are pretty accessible on the train, but Wallington and Wilsons less so and so I think this naturally prevents many children applying.

The other thing I've learnt (this is my third time through this horrendous process) is that it's such a lottery and the children you would put money on getting a place frequently don't.

Good luck to all our DC for the months ahead

My impression (very anecdotal) is that the children who live locally and who have a good chance will have a go at several. For those trying from further away, I suspect more than a handful will just go for one - because it is a long shot, a long journey, that particular one is on the right train line, near a parent's workplace, there are other local options, etc. It depends how easy it is to fill your CAF though.

I agree about tutoring - the line that they won't cope when they get in there just doesn't stack up for the superselective schools (the same applies to the Graveney test). Not only is there no room for error, there is no room for sneezing, scratching your head, wondering why the boy in the seat next door has green ears, nothing.

Most children are not born with those powers of concentration; and I suspect most who can score reasonably well on those tests first go would do just fine at those schools, but they are unlikely to get in without practice. It can be easier to get the practice in with a tutor.

OP, I would have a bash, so then you know, unless either you or your son are of a particularly sensitive disposition!

What Tiggy says about the Tiffin exam is very realistic. The tutoring which goes on is unbelievable and nowadays you will not get in if you weren't very able and tutored to the zenith.

Not sure how you would come by that information? The Registrar at Sutton Grammar used to be most helpful but she's gone onto pastures new at Graveney. Not sure whether anyone in the Education Department at Sutton Borough Council would furnish you with the relevant information? Might be worth a try?

But I would guess more than a handful. Know that a few of DS's classmates only sat Tiffin and a couple did Sutton and Wallington but not the others. If that is representative of patterns at other schools then I could imagine that there could have been tens of unique applicants. Pure guesswork though!

Also, not all of the 1400 will be applying to all the four schools.
We might apply to Tiffin say for transport reasons from Clapham, but not the other three.

I'd be interested to know how many unique applicants there are for all those four schools.

Any info anyone ?

DS passed the three Sutton Grammar School 11+ exams, got an offer at one on Offers Day, missed out on his second choice because of the distance criteria used for the boys scoring the cut-off mark but then was offered a place at that school a couple of weeks down the line. We weren't ever told how many boys had scored the same mark as DS but he lost out because we live out of Borough and obviously further away than boys with the same score. He was 9th on the waiting list on Offers Day so would anticipate that at least ten boys had got the cut off score but it could have been considerably higher.

Apparently Tiffin does offer places to all the boys with the same score - look at the 11+ Forum for more information. And by some miracle the parents seem to know exactly how many children scored each mark! Not sure the other schools are so transparent about their results but maybe the parents don't ask the salient questions.

For whatever reason Tiffin does seem to be regarded as the most sought after grammar school in the Surrey/Kingston area - I'm not totally sure why!

What would be interesting for Sutton Borough to collate would be a venn diagram showing the overlap of boys passing all three, numbers passing one or two or none.

On the basis of DS's classmates results with the grammar schools, eight took at least some of the four local 11+ exams, two passed at least three (DS only took three but his classmate took and passed four), two failed by a narrow margin (but got into one of the local partially selective comprehensives) and the other four failed by more than five points.

tiggytape - Are you sure that's right? So for example if a group of 20 boys scored the same top score would all of them get a place or would they apply the rule mentioned above?

All this still confuses me

Oh this has changed from last year as before they kept I believe 20 places for boys who lived in the borough.

Theas18 - agree, we spoke with my DS's teacher before putting him forward. The whole experience is quite stressfull and it used to break my heart when I saw children coming out of the exam crying :(

Same in Birmingham. There is a cohort of kids that apply for grammars, and that cohort applies for many schools, but each child can obviously take only up one place- it's pretty impossible to find out really how many kids apply per place- but it's at least 10:1 .

Brum schools again are super selective so start filling with the highest marks and top when all places allocated there is no pass/fail mark. In a very good cohort or an easy exam the places might be allocated from say 100% down to 98%, a hard paper or less clever cohort means that lower scores will get a place.

500 total places and 1500 applicants isn't actually too bad odds at all, assuming your child is of the required standard- there are a lot who apply just " on spec" here anyway without the child really being up to it (why, if your child is in the middle stream at primary, so really very average would you put them through the 11+- I've no idea!)

TheWomanOnTheBus

That's why people tutor!

It's such a silly exclusively MN thing to say, "the bright don't need tutoring". That's true for the absolute cream, the top 200 in my model above. But for the 1000 fighting for 300 places, just one or two extra marks make a very big difference.

The whole "if you tutor, yiou are setting your child up for failure when they get to the school" thing makes me smile wryly. I think 40 years ago, when the 11+ was nationwide and there were hundreds and hundreds of places for the kids who tested well, then yes, it made sense not to tutor. The 11+ was a test which selected those who performed on the day. And besides, hardly anyone tested, so there was no nuclear arms race of testing.

But with such limited places today, the competition is so fierce and so tutoring doesmake sense.

Oh..with Wilson's there were a number of places I think 20 which were reserved for kids who lived in the borough. Don't know if this has changed since last year though but think this is fair.

To clarify the odds of getting a place. My DS sat all three entrance exams last year. For all schools around 1400 applications were recieved however only roughly 450 passed Wallington and Sutton and 365 Wilson. Given that most people will apply to all school's, if your son passes the entrance exams then he has a good chance of getting a place at one of the grammars. Even once offers have been made there is always movement a bit of movement on the waiting list so I wouldn't discount it.

No it's distance and nothing to do with borough. If two boys achieve the same score the boy living nearest to the school will be offered a place. For high scorers it's irelevant as you will be awarded a place regardless of where you live.